RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me.

RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (Full Version)

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WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:08:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: antipode So where's the profile? Deactivated, why? do you wish to send me a private email on the other side?

missturbation -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:12:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2 quote: ORIGINAL: cagliostro I don't see the statement as a challenge or ultimatum. Rather as a plea. And I don't see why it's any different than asking to go to her parent's house. Do you really want to do it, or are you doing it to please her? She enjoys it, so enjoy her enjoyment. Simple. Thank you, this was how I intended for it to be in the first place. However it appears to be precieved as being a threat instead of a plea. Yes, it actually is rather simple as well, and I'm amazed at the number of people that make it more complex due to their own internal hang-up. Hold your horses there bucko!! Because i dont agree with your choice of words i have an internal hang up? Who died and made you God, ultimate judge of all those earthly? On topic, all those who have disagreed with your choice of words have gone on to answer your op and yet you choose to ignore that in favour of the fact they have disagreed with you over something in it.

kyraofMists -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:12:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2 Again, inflicting pain upon somebody does not require sadism. You are right, it doesn't require someone to be sadistic. Alandra is not sadistic and yet she helped him beat me bloddy with a BBQ brush earlier this year. He essentially ordered her to do it and when she wasn't hitting hard enough for his satisfaction he told her to hit harder. The pleasure that she derived from it was in pleasing him and me. However, if it made her feel horrible about herself to do this, I cannot imagine making her hurt me or telling her to prove her love by hurting me. From my perspective, if I did this, I would just prove how little I love her. If I only love her because of what she does for me and not who she is, then I don't really love her. I just love what I can get out of the relationship with her. Harm doesn't just occur to the bottom. The top can be harmed in play just as easily. If causing pain to someone else is a boundary for someone then why ask them to prove their love by crossing their boundaries? Knight's Kyra

WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:17:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDarkness quote: Yes, inflicting pain upon somebody you LOVE can be a real TEST. The question is can you pass it or not? Because if you partner has a true burning desire for Pain, or even a need for it. To deny them of this well frankly can be rather selfish if But./..but...that whole line of text sounds egoistic/selfish aswell. If you are in a relation..then it is "give and take". And not saying "selfish"when someone has a different look at things. Ummmm... I can see where you are coming from. In all honestly, I started this thread with the hopes of some people pulling themselves out of themself for a moment to see the other side of the coin. To look at the needs, wants and desires of their partners. For instance, does most Masochists come with shut off valves? Does it somehow make their desires, needs and wants for pain go away? That somehow we are going to wave a magic wand and make our partners no longer masochistic? Perhaps people if they could step outside of themselves for a moment, look at things from a perspective of Love, they might see things in a more beautiful light that might encourage them and give them strength to inflict pain. I love you honey! Wack Wack Wack!! To be confident and proud of yourself for giving pain to somebody you love. Instead of letting that become a mental hung-up or road block. It's my intention of this thread to provoke thought and challenge these sort of road-blocks that can occur. I'm trying to Free some people's minds for a moment, help them step outside of themselves. I was sincerely disheartened reading yet another post on this subject this morning. My heart literally sank for them, a complete stranger.

KatyLied -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:21:23 PM)
I've never understood the "I love you too much to hurt you" thing. I see love as an opportunity to reveal a deeper intimacy and putting all sorts of things out there, and that includes, for some people, the infliction and acceptance of pain.

DesFIP -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:23:38 PM)
I have to disagree with the op. If one partner feels bad about hurting the other, then it is wrong to insist they do so. You might as well say that the masochist in the relationship should give up their pain needs in order to make the nonsadist happy. Sometimes you just aren't compatible. And sometimes you need to think outside the box. In the case referred to, why not suggest the maso and partner attend public play parties where the maso can get his/her pain needs met while the partner is the one to do the aftercare and reap the emotional intimacy? No ses, no other relationship, just find an occasional sadist like a tennis player will look for someone to play with? You don't have to have sex with your tennis partner or be their best friend, same applies here.

SailingBum -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:33:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2 Ummmm... I can see where you are coming from. In all honestly, I started this thread with the hopes of some people pulling themselves out of themself for a moment to see the other side of the coin. To look at the needs, wants and desires of their partners. After skiming all the posts there is only one person that "got it" is missturbation. whats up with all the if you love me crapola responses? It is read my lips completly up to the dom whether the bitch get wacked or not. Furthermore it doesn't matter if she likes it or not. It's not about the subs needs unless of course the def of submissive has changed. The fact that the OP needs his ass kicked to reset him is a sign of emotional trama in his early years. It has nothin to do with my view of BDSM. BadOne

WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:35:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists "If you love me, you will do X" is emotional manipulation. The masochist saying to the non-sadist, "if you love me, you would hurt me" can just as easily be turned back around and the non-sadist can say "if you loved me, you wouldn't ask me to do something that goes against who I am". If causing pain makes the non-sadist feel awful about themselves then how horribly selfish of the masochist to essentially say, prove your love me by doing something that makes you feel bad so that I can feel good. There are other ways to have constructive dialogue and express wants, desires and needs without resorting to "if you love me". Knight's Kyra This is something that should be addressed from the Start of a relationship. If somebody is not into S&M play or not. Where I see the problem occuring time and time again is such. Sadistic Master/Dom Daddy... hooks up with Masochistic Subbie slave girl. Then after 6 months or however long. He's no longer into inflicting pain upon her. Something which was part of the original relationship. Because Masochistic Subbie slave girl really is into pain and being used. Now, however the relationship faulters because Sadistic Master/Dom Daddy feel in LOVE for her and is in DADDY DOM only mode. One can get the sense of a sort of false advertising here. Because HEY Where the Fuck did my Sadistic Daddy Go? I want him back is what the Maso is saying to themselves. So, really? Let's talk about Manipulation here for a moment. Who manipulated who here? Oh I'm sorry baby, I know you thought you were getting a Sadistic Daddy, but I pussied out on you, and now you just have to live with who I really am. I think that could be considered or viewed as a form of manipulating in itself by the DOM or tops end. So what Happened to that Sadistic Dom/top? Where did they go? Were they ever really all that sadistic to begin with? Either 1. they were manipulative in the get go or 2. They hit a mental road block that they need to over come. In either case, where things are at is not what Maso Subbie Slave girl was signing on board to in the beginning of the relationship. Some people need to be manipulated out of their mental hang up and road blocks. When did the word Manipulate become so negative in the lifestyle? There are good forms of manipulation and bad forms of it. All depends upon it it provokes a response or reaction. Since when does expressing a desire or a plea or trying to tap into an alternative source or inspiration to do something become so negative? OK, Daddy... do you think you can hurt me because you Love then? If you can hurt me, what am I going to do Daddy? I'm a masochistic little girl Daddy? I miss you Daddy? Will you play rough with me like you used to Daddy? Daddy, you say you Love me, but why won't you play with me Daddy? Dear Daddy, I'm feeling sad, I miss you, you no longer play with me, like you used to. You say it's because you love me. Daddy, I don't understand, if you love me so much then why won't you play with me. Daddy, you know I love you too... Please Daddy continue to Love me too.. Don't shut me out. Daddy, I feel like playing so bad with you that it hurts my heart to think about it. Daddy you no longer playing rough with me is hurting my heart. Please Daddy if you Love me, please play with me. I don't understand. (this type of though process will be rolling around inside the submissive/bottom head like marbles in a coffee can).

QandA -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:40:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2 Ummmm... I can see where you are coming from. In all honestly, I started this thread with the hopes of some people pulling themselves out of themself for a moment to see the other side of the coin. To look at the needs, wants and desires of their partners. For instance, does most Masochists come with shut off valves? Does it somehow make their desires, needs and wants for pain go away? That somehow we are going to wave a magic wand and make our partners no longer masochistic? Perhaps people if they could step outside of themselves for a moment, look at things from a perspective of Love, they might see things in a more beautiful light that might encourage them and give them strength to inflict pain. I love you honey! Wack Wack Wack!! To be confident and proud of yourself for giving pain to somebody you love. Instead of letting that become a mental hung-up or road block. Not all couples are meant to be together. Yes, a person can do something that makes them uncomfortable, and if that discomfort is mild enough to be bearable they can do those things anyway. However, if it's something that falls into the category of emotionally or mentally damaging it's not going to be something that someone can just get over or work through. In any healthy relationship a person's first duty is to themselves. A Dom can not take care of his sub if he's not taking care of himself. A sub can not take care of her Dom if she's not taking care of herself. I spent over two years in a relationship that was VERY bad for me simply because I got the "If you loved me..." line used, and I didn't see it for the trap that it was. I loved him enough to nearly destroy myself... until I realized what he was doing and saw his emotional blackmail for what it was. It ended when I realized that I was resenting him for the things that he enjoyed... because all I was to him was a breathing blow-up doll for him to get his kicks off of. I'm fairly certain that's not the way you meant it. If a couple is at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the enjoyment of pain then that's something they'll have to work on... or move on. (I define that spectrum as ranging from enjoying giving/receiving pain to not enjoying giving/receiving pain.) From whatever side of the kneel, if a partner is asking another to do something that is damaging to them physically, mentally or emotionally, the one doing the asking needs to step back and made some hard decisions... is this something they can let go? Is their partner just not the right one for them and they're better being friends? Is their partnership the type where they can invite a third to add the missing component? Not easy choices for anybody... but spending time pining for something in an unsatisfactory relationship, or pressuring the one you "love" to do something that they feel bad about, often hurts a lot more in the long run. lil Aidan

thetammyjo -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:43:29 PM)
I think this common conflict in tops is based on what I consider the proper way most of us raise human beings with the idea that we shouldn't hurt or or harm others. The key here is the issue of consent and yet it can be so difficult to feel you have consent with some of the trappings we use in Ds and with this previous training to not hurt or harm others. One thing that helped me was realizing that we do a lot of things in our lives that hurt others and yet which we have no problem with. Sports and medicine are two of these. In each case the hurt involved is consented to and use to achieve a goal or greater good. Thus in my Ds or SM dynamic, if I can say that we both consent and that we are working toward something even if it's only having fun, it seems very reasonable to me to hurt the one I love or like. As others have said it requires that the bottom or sub give reassurance when these issues come up but we as top/doms must also work on the issue by requesting feedback and reflecting on why we feel the way we do.

KatyLied -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:44:10 PM)
quote: It's not about the subs needs unless of course the def of submissive has changed. Maybe not in your world. If my needs are not being met the relationship isn't of much use to me. My wants, another story, I can get the entire dominant thing there, but I do have needs and they are important to me and the relationship.

WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:50:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2 Ummmm... I can see where you are coming from. In all honestly, I started this thread with the hopes of some people pulling themselves out of themself for a moment to see the other side of the coin. To look at the needs, wants and desires of their partners. After skiming all the posts there is only one person that "got it" is missturbation. whats up with all the if you love me crapola responses? It is read my lips completly up to the dom whether the bitch get wacked or not. Furthermore it doesn't matter if she likes it or not. It's not about the subs needs unless of course the def of submissive has changed. The fact that the OP needs his ass kicked to reset him is a sign of emotional trama in his early years. It has nothin to do with my view of BDSM. BadOne I'm very resolved to the fact that my reset button, is probally the result of early emotional trama in my early years. I'm pretty certain I'm pretty alright about it too. Sure, it's up to the Dom if the bitch gets wacked or not. But Wacking it a bit like Sex. Some people have certain needs and wants and if they ain't getting it, you bet your ass they will be out there cheating or go looking for it one day. Relationship comes to an end over lack of things. I personally think any DOM knows the power of taking control of a submissives needs, wants, desires and wishes knows the power that they are holding in their hands. But yeah, End of the day it's up to the DOM in regards to WACK or not WACK the bitch. Then again some DOMs make crappy decisions, then live with regrets later. Even more so when the Bitch has Run off with a DOM that actually will Wack their Bitch ass. But Live and Learn to each their own. I've seen Guys pull out that DOM/Master Card and make some crappy choices.. thinking to themselves.. I am the DOM whatever I say goes regardless if she likes it or not. Ironic, this just happen to a local DOM here where I live. He was not Happy when his Bitch went off with his Ex Brother in Law. But Oh Well.. to each their own.

SailingBum -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:52:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: It's not about the subs needs unless of course the def of submissive has changed. Maybe not in your world. If my needs are not being met the relationship isn't of much use to me. My wants, another story, I can get the entire dominant thing there, but I do have needs and they are important to me and the relationship. Well of course it would depend on how many needs you have. This is not the thread to get into it suffice to saw. ie I have 20 "needs" lets assume you fill all but 2. Would I stay in the relationship? Yes. BadOne

simpleplan2 -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:53:34 PM)
Just what I was thinking Katy.

kyraofMists -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2 Sadistic Master/Dom Daddy... hooks up with Masochistic Subbie slave girl. Then after 6 months or however long. He's no longer into inflicting pain upon her. Something which was part of the original relationship. Because Masochistic Subbie slave girl really is into pain and being used. Now, however the relationship faulters because Sadistic Master/Dom Daddy feel in LOVE for her and is in DADDY DOM only mode. One can get the sense of a sort of false advertising here. Because HEY Where the Fuck did my Sadistic Daddy Go? I want him back is what the Maso is saying to themselves. So, really? Let's talk about Manipulation here for a moment. Who manipulated who here? Ahhh... so rather than be mature and say "hey, this isn't what I really signed up for, so maybe I need to walk away and find someone who will actually be able to meet my needs" you think the answer is to try and manipulate them into doing what you want? Who is in control then? To me, manipulation is contrary to the whole idea of having a mature, healthy relationship with someone else and it is extremely contrary to my idea of transfering authority over to someone else. If he has the authority within our relationship, then I would be a pretty piss poor submissive to him if I tried to manipulate him into doing what I want, when I want it and how I want it. I am a masochist and there are times that I don't get the level of play that I would like. Life just gets in the fucking way and sometimes he just isn't in the right frame of mind to do it. You know what, I love who he is and not what he can do for me. I don't expect him to satisfy my every want and need when I have them. He expects me to be able to manage myself so that I don't get off kilter just because a want or need has gone unmet for awhile. Honestly, I would be pretty disappointed in our relationship if the whole thing faltered because he was no longer able to inflict pain on me. Pain can be fun to play with. Pain can be a tool to help manage my emotions. However, pain is not the only way I know how to have fun and it is not the only tool I have at my disposal and pain is just a part of my relationship with him. Knight's Kyra

KatyLied -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:55:53 PM)
18/20 is pretty good. But if 2 of the 20 are the important ones it won't last long, especially if I can get those 2 elsewhere. I'm not going to stay in a relationship and resent it and him because he can't handle who I am.

SailingBum -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 12:57:20 PM)
Uh Dude, I don't need to play a dom card. See it's like this she respects my decisions and abides by them. That is not to say she agrees with all of them. BadOne

SailingBum -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 1:00:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied 18/20 is pretty good. But if 2 of the 20 are the important ones it won't last long, especially if I can get those 2 elsewhere. I'm not going to stay in a relationship and resent it and him because he can't handle who I am. All long as I got my point across to you. Nothing is forever. BadOne

missturbation -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 1:01:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied 18/20 is pretty good. But if 2 of the 20 are the important ones it won't last long, especially if I can get those 2 elsewhere. I'm not going to stay in a relationship and resent it and him because he can't handle who I am. Which says to me this whole thing is a sign of incomaptibility rather than anything else. As meat loaf said ' i would do anything for love, but i won't do that.' Which means anyone who wants me to is incompatible to me. On the flip side there are always things i aint going to like but as a SLAVE i accept. As a DOM i wouldnt have to. This whole dynamic thing aint about equality to me though so maybe i think differently to many.

KatyLied -> RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. (10/31/2008 1:09:11 PM)
Perhaps not equality. But I won't hang in a relationship where my needs are not being met. And also where my important wants are not being met. Where is the fun in that? I get suffering, and service and being uncomfortable and not getting my way every moment. But <gasp> it also has to be about me some of the time. I will also freely admit and recognize that I am not a slave and not the most subly sub type you'll ever see.

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