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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 2:13:12 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

...that colonialist imperialism does not allow ANYTHING politically of their slaves.



This is not true, the British could be remarkably liberal, it is how they often managed to divide and rule.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

To refuse oil to the self-appointed superior imperialist Japan was one the wisest defensive moves that FDR could have done without firing shot. The world and the US didn't owe the Japanese anything. We were and are not now obilgated to do business with any power and currently have perfectly legal prohibitions against dealing with terrorist regimes now. Iran comes to mind.



As I pointed out before, if anyone refused to sell America oil, America would see it as an act of war. Let´s be honest, oil and the US being kicked out of Iran is the real reason for the US´s anti/Iranian stance. Imperial powers don´t like being being shown the door because it encourages others to do the same.  Israel is a convenient fig leaf in this issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
If Iran attacks Israel...are we being the aggressor to refuse them the technology and arms to do it ? Would Iran then have a pretext to launch a surprise bombing attack on America ? Don't you see how ridiculous this begins to seem ?


Again, American foreign policy is irrational here. America claims to stand for freedom in the middle east but it allows its main allie to run one of the largest concentration camps in the world, right in the middle of people it claims to be fighting for democracy for. America could broker peace with justice in the middle east tomorrow if it wanted but it refuses to control its allie it bankrolls. One can only assume it is America´s interest for the conflict in the ME to continue since it has regularly backed its allie when its allie commits war crimes and human rights crimes. Sorry but US attitudes in the middle east don´t support the US´s claim to want democracy and peace in the region. As long as there is conflict, the US will have an excuse to intervene for its own interests.

This behaviour is age old and classic imperial behaviour, not something America has invented.

The British didn't need to divide to rule, they had the guns. ALL of the British empire were made up of politicians that were puppets. We have had two, the Shah of Iran and Marcos, both black marks in our history.

The Arab powers and OPEC twice cut off their exports of oil to the west. We never politically took it or acted upon that as an act of war. We never so much as hinted at invasion. We stood in gas lines and paid the price.

I am not intersted in the various geopolitical assumptions about America's success or lack of success in the middle east. To read you guys, we must be slipping. We should have long ago made our colonialist imperialism intention known as just as easily as you suggest we could bring peace to the middle east, we could have colonized it.

AND, you didn't answer my question and I know why. We wouldn't be the aggressors if Iran attacked Israel and not only because we didn't help Iran but because we have tried and often succeded in being the honest broker of peace.

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 2:13:45 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

The US w NEVER like them or any of the European colonialist.


the Dutch didn't do bad for their size. :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_Dutch_colonies

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/5/2008 2:18:07 AM >

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 2:18:05 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Since it appears that America forcing Japan in the mid 19th century to open up it seaports and sign treaties it found humiliating doesn´t appear to be classed as imperial, that takes care of most of the British Empire. People like to conveniently forget it was the west´s and America´s hard lessons in imperialism that altered the course of Japanese history from one of a reclusive nation to that of a country with imperial ambitions.

First, for most of the 18th and 19th century the sun didn't set on the British empire and was the largest, most successful, brutal and strongest imperial colonial power to ever exist. The US w NEVER like them or any of the European colonialist.


We've already mentioned the genocide of the plains Indians so the US was every bit like the European empires.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
The British Empire was large and brutal, not as brutal as the other European Empires but brutal it was and as I pointed out, remarkably liberal if that is what it took to get its way.


About Japan and the US...
In 1898, the last of the 'unequal treaties' with Western powers was removed, signalling Japan's new status among the nations of the world. In a few decades, by reforming and modernizing social, educational, economic, military, political and industrial systems, the Emporer Meiji's 'controlled revolution' had transformed a feudal and isolated state into a world power. 1898.....


I think I implied Japan was transformed but it tramnsformed itself as a response to western intervention. As for you comment about 'feudal', you are making an imperial value judgement there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Perry first sailed to Japan to do two things...return two Japanese nationals who had ship wrecked and landed in SF and...open trade with Japan. Upon arriving for the first time...he was fired upon by the obsessively isolationist Japanese with their naval and border forces. Perry left.

He came back with more warships and attacked and invaded Japan as the US colconialist imperialists sought complete control and domination of them...NOT.

They instead were in fact warned again not to approach and would be dealth with. Perry remained and eventually negotiated...yes negotiated a treaty. You know, those hard core colonialist imperialists always NEGOTIATE their treaties...NOT. They impose rule by war or the force of arms.

WE never ever fired a single round, yet WE are the imperialist colonialist.

Kinkroids, these words have real meaning and in no way, shape or form was America EVER the aggressor in the Pacific theater and in fact for almost a century...it was Japan who was and everybody in the whole neighborhood knew it.


This is an imperial rationalisation. On many occasions the British didn't have to fire a shot. You just have to tap the gun on your hip to give out the appropriate message if the person your talking to isn't armed.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/5/2008 2:19:40 AM >

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 2:34:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The British didn't need to divide to rule, they had the guns. ALL of the British empire were made up of politicians that were puppets. We have had two, the Shah of Iran and Marcos, both black marks in our history.


I would claim more. I never said that the US is the worst imperial power in history, your sensitivities are making you think I said that. I've been saying all along, the US is an imperial power and is no different in its foreign policy pursuits than other western imperial powers that have gone before.Though I'm sure many Arabs would consider the American empire as brutal. Its a matter of perception as to whether you are on the recsiving end or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
The Arab powers and OPEC twice cut off their exports of oil to the west. We never politically took it or acted upon that as an act of war. We never so much as hinted at invasion. We stood in gas lines and paid the price.

I am not intersted in the various geopolitical assumptions about America's success or lack of success in the middle east. To read you guys, we must be slipping. We should have long ago made our colonialist imperialism intention known as just as easily as you suggest we could bring peace to the middle east, we could have colonized it.


You bankroll Israel, you have power over it so when the Arabs offer a universal peace plan within the 67 borders that just about everyone in the world thought was a good start for serious negotiating, you back Israel's rejection of it without exploring the possibilities. That suggests you just weren't interested in any peace and taken as such in the Arab world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

AND, you didn't answer my question and I know why. We wouldn't be the aggressors if Iran attacked Israel and not only because we didn't help Iran but because we have tried and often succeded in being the honest broker of peace.



America is either irrational when it comes to Israel or it doesn't regard peace in the middle east as in US interests. Its difficult to say which. However, America has always been happy with Israeli illegal possession of nuclear weapons, long before there was any thought of any other country in the region having nukes so there is another clue to the US/Israeli relationship and its partizan attitude to the ME.

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 7:26:12 AM   
HunterS


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Status: offline 		Something you are conveniently ignoring is that in 1974 when the six month long arab oil embargo was initiated the U.S. was producing about 70% of our needs domestically.  We also had access to other sources of oil so the impact of the embargo were not the same as they were in Japan where the "ABCD" (America,Britain,China,Dutch)group were the sole supliers of oil to Japan.  In addition the U.S. was not involved in a war at the time of the embargo and Japan was.

H.

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 11:06:41 AM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		Let's clear the rhetorical air here.

If you are saying that this is all a slow gradual yet soon to be total 'western' capitalist financial imperialism...I am with you. We don't need physical, military or empire by force...not very popular among labor and they need labor.

If you are saying that there is a group of elites...political, industrial, media, captains all, of society that are in fact pursuing yet more financial and collective military and police powers (domination)...I am with you.

This pursuit renders the little guys inconsequential as we are taking about power over more than half of the financial world...the Russians will eventually play ball because they are kleptocrats and Putin will retire with his 24 yr. old ballerina and $40 Billion dollars...or the west will cut him off. The Chinese likewise will join in on this parade because they have the most profitable gulag (a billion peasants) and millions of consumer who think they are rich if only because it' the first time 10's of millions had ANY money in their pocket.

Islam will not play ball and will have to go and thus I predict a large American diplomatic and military presence in Iraq...forever.

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 11:17:54 AM   
HunterS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Let's clear the rhetorical air here.

If you are saying that this is all a slow gradual yet soon to be total 'western' capitalist financial imperialism...I am with you. We don't need physical, military or empire by force...not very popular among labor and they need labor.

If you are saying that there is a group of elites...political, industrial, media, captains all, of society that are in fact pursuing yet more financial and collective military and police powers (domination)...I am with you.

This pursuit renders the little guys inconsequential as we are taking about power over more than half of the financial world...the Russians will eventually play ball because they are kleptocrats and Putin will retire with his 24 yr. old ballerina and $40 Billion dollars...or the west will cut him off. The Chinese likewise will join in on this parade because they have the most profitable gulag (a billion peasants) and millions of consumer who think they are rich if only because it' the first time 10's of millions had ANY money in their pocket.

Islam will not play ball and will have to go and thus I predict a large American diplomatic and military presence in Iraq...forever.


I am unsure how any of the above is relevant to anything I have ever  posted.  Are you sure you are responding to the proper person?
 
H.

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 1:39:12 PM   
newlifenewstart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
God always sides with the victors.


people that die pray a lott too


I think everyone who has ever prayed has ended up dying.... not that I am saying it doesn't help on the otherside or anything but its going to happen sometime

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/5/2008 1:42:37 PM   
JustDarkness


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Status: offline 		those who didn't will die too...guess that makes us all equals..lol

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/6/2008 1:08:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Rather ironically there was an American documentary, I repeat, an American, documentary on Belgium TV yesterday called 'Make War Easÿ'. It illustrated how American politicians have repeated lied to promote wars and the American mainstream media collaborated in those lies while any desenting voice was sidelined by being accused of being unAmerican, unpatriotic or too old and stupid in the head. War and militarism has become such a part of US policy that American Presidents use it for cover because if you are a good American you just don't criticize ther Commander in Chief in times of war. MSBC's Donahue was one of the main desenting voices and showed how it was tried repeatedly to keep him quiet.

It was illustrated several times that when it comes to promoting wars, American journalists and media become part of the Whitehouse propaganda machine. For example, when Colin Powell gave out the evidence that Saddam had WMDs, all the mainstream media in America said Powell had put forward so many facts the charge against Saddam was irrefutable. Even the New York Times agreed, Powell had produced evidence. The American Broadcast media had turned into a mob and lost all decorum in declaring Saddam having WMDs. The documentary then produced European newspapers printed on the same day as the American ones and all refuted the evidence Powell had given with checkable facts where possible, the rediculous sources of his evidence and an analysis of his language and how he was trying to hoodwink people that didn't listen hard enough.

The documentary also analysed how war had become part of the enetertainment industry and how as each war is fought, there are programmes or part of the news given over to analysing (and salivating over: my term) ever newer technological weapons. It also analysed how America was taught to differentiate between the morality of killing. Becoming a human bomb and killing a mass of innocent people is evil, killing a mass of innocent people from 30,000 feet, irrelevent. It also pointed out with each war through the century, technology (as is the myth in America) does not kill less innocent victims. WWI, 10% of victims were civilians, WWII, 50% victims were civilians, Vietnam 70% of victims were civilians, Iraq 90% of victims were civilians.

This sort of collaboration between the Whitehouse and the tamed mainstream media occurred throughout the post war period from Korea, right through to Iraq and every war inbetween. As one talking head said 'We have become what we claim to despise, an Empire.'


This was a 100% American documentary and featured no Europeans, either in the making of the documentary, its production or featured in the documentary itself. It was sober and informative in its analysis and seemed pretty well balanced in its presentation.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/6/2008 1:16:08 AM >

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 2:13:13 PM   
piratecommander


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Status: offline 		I dont suppose you know the title of said documentary ? That , I wouild like to obtain a copy of.

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:10:39 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		War Made Easy

http://www.warmadeeasythemovie.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3OLVuN6V7w

It was one of a series of American documentaries shown on Belgian TV over the last couple of weeks. Different makers but all concerned with American foreign policy and how it is sold to Americans through the mainstream media. There was another one called Selling War but I'm wondering if I have got the title right because I can't find it on the web.

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:22:24 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		So meatcleaver is it your assertion that the fact it was an American made documentary.....lends it more weight.I find this point of view coming from you hilarious to say the least.All we get from you,on all subjects is the opinion that Americans are spoon fed clap trap....now you cheery pick some piece of film making that happens to conform with your view of things,and presto the stamp Made in America...is golden.Your version of Fair and Balanced qualifies you to work for Fox News....and in case your missing my point let me be clear here....you have absolutely zero credibility on any subject concerning America as far as I am concerned ...and your opinions mean less than zero to me..

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:26:25 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		No but if I quoted a none American documentary you would be claiming it was cockeyed and biased and anti-American. However, I don't need to rely on TV documentaries, there are enough books and research by creditable historians and journalists with international reputations that have researched and recorded similar over the last 60 years.

Though I think the documentary was aimed at head in the sand Americans like yourself rather than people like me who witness American foreign policy from the outside.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/7/2008 3:28:21 PM >

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:31:57 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Selective reading is a beautiful thing.As many books you can come up with that prop up your point of view,I can reference that refute your point of view.So again we are back to zero credibility....and if you care to dispute that,please point me to one post of yours that doesn't come down to an anti-American rant.... just one post dealing with a political issue...and I will apologise,failing that I stand by my claim ...zero credibility.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:39:14 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		There have been plenty, you just don't like the message.

America and lapdog are fighting a war of aggression, you don't like it being called a war of aggression, you like to pretend Americans are fighting for someone elses freedom who just happen to live in a strategic part of the world which is rich in resources the US is hungry for. Its just easier to accuse everyone else of being wrong than looking in the mirror.

Vietnam was another where the rest of the world was wrong. Harold Wilson called it a colonial war and it had nothing to do with communism but a nation wanting its freedom. Vietnam that is. And that is what the war was about as we have since seen.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/7/2008 3:42:03 PM >

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:44:41 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Fist off if you are referring to Iraq,you should know up front,and if you took the time to read post's of mine ,I don't agree with that war and have said so on numerous occasions.I come from the school of thought that says if you love your country you have the balls to disagree with it,If you are referring to Afghanistan,it is my opinion we should have went in there with overwhelming force killed Osama bin Laden and crushed the taliban...and left.My beef with you isn't about pointing out when America is wrong...it is that you believe America is allways wrong,hence zero credibility.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 11/7/2008 3:49:06 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:47:32 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Firstly, may I say I find it amazing this thread is still going on.

Secondly, Simon Schama's The American Future, A History recently devoted an entire programme to how the US became an imperial power starting with the Spanish-American war that "liberated" Cuba and the Philippines. Mark Twain was reported as having been all for the liberation but was later very much against the whole thing once the motivations of Theodore Roosevelt in pursuing a policy he had twisted into an imperial adventure, were revealed.

Mark Twain went from being a living legend in the US to being persona non grata for resisting the Presidency and its foreign policy - a foreign policy whose nature has changed little since.

E

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RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:48:54 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The American government has most of the time been wrong since WWII. I would argue that American foreign policy crossed the line and lost its moral compass when it decided to drop the atom bomb on Japan as a warning to Russia.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Japan not the aggressor in WWII - 11/7/2008 3:51:27 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Mark Twain went from being a living legend in the US to being persona non grata for resisting the Presidency and its foreign policy - a foreign policy whose nature has changed little since.

E


Quite a few Americans who stood up and complained about American foreign policy have been ditched since for being unAmerican or unpatriotic.

_____________________________

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