RE: Genesis

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Genesis

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Genesis

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 2:23:42 PM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

Well, I'll be. Not that I've ever actually read Genesis...and we don't all have the same bibles, btw...but I couldv'e sworn I knew the 'Adam and Eve' story. A serpent, and apple, *poof* out ya go, and Gawd punishes *both* of them by making childbirth painful.

the.dark. I didn't mean the bible has an particular claim to 'truth' as compared to the folktale about Lillith....I was using the word to refer to a book most of us have probably heard of and which many of us might recognise as having the same contents...or at least similar. Never been entirely sure why a Catholic and a Protestant bible would be different. Never been a student of comparative religion.

Aneirin, I'm still a bit confused about what you meant to ask. If you are seeking the 'truth' about human nature in a spiritual sense by examining beliefs from different culutures, etc., then I follow....but I'm not sure what that would have to do with the science of human evolution. (Unless you're suspending judgment about that evolution?)

We had this great museum in the city where I grew up, with all these life-sized dioramas about neanderthal man and cromagnum man, etc. and I have always assumed that if we had the wits, we could discover something about their spiritual beliefs, and that they would include a creation myth. Maybe someday archeologists will find something.

candystripper

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 21

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 2:43:43 PM

RealSub58

Posts: 1073
Status: offline

< Message edited by RealSub58 -- 11/1/2008 3:12:10 PM >

(in reply to JumpingJax)

Post #: 22

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 2:49:32 PM

RealSub58

Posts: 1073
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

not a portion of the bible.

quote:

A few points.

The name "Lilith" does not appear in the bible.

Isaiah 34:14

"Goat demons shall greet each other; there too the lilith will repose."

Question: "Who was Lilith / Lillith? Does the Bible say anything about Adam having another wife before Eve?"

Answer: There are legends that Adam had a wife before Eve who was named Lilith, but this is not found in the Bible. The legends vary significantly, but they all essentially agree that Lilith left Adam because she did not want to submit to him. According to the legends, Lilith was an evil, wicked woman who committed adultery with Satan and produced a race of evil creatures. None of this is true. There is no biblical basis whatsoever for these concepts. There is no one in the Bible named Lilith.

The passage most often pointed to as evidence for Lilith is Isaiah 34:14, which in the NRSV reads, "there too Lilith shall repose." This is a poor translation. Every other major translation of the Bible reads something to the effect of "night creature" or "screech owl." Even if "demon monster named Lilith" was the proper translation of the Hebrew word, Adam is nowhere even hinted at in this passage or its context. Whatever the Lilith was, it is not given any connection whatsoever to Adam or Creation.

Another commonly used support for Lilith is the differing Creation accounts in Genesis chapters 1-2. Some claim that the woman in Genesis 1 was Lilith, with the woman in Genesis 2 being Eve. This is completely ludicrous. Rather, Genesis chapter 2 is a "closer look" at the creation of Adam and Eve as recorded in Genesis chapter 1. The Bible specifically says that Adam and Eve were the first human beings ever created (Genesis 1:26-28; 2:18-25). This "Lilith" myth is popular in some radical feminist movements because Lilith is an example of a woman refusing to submit to male headship. While there are myths outside of the Word of God regarding Lilith, her complete absence from Scripture demonstrates that she is nothing more than a myth.

Recommended Resource: Biblical Creationism by Henry Morris.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Lillith.html

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 23

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 3:09:47 PM

RealSub58

Posts: 1073
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
And the bible isn't a folktale of sorts?
Never underestimate folktales.
the.dark.

I believe a great response to this is found already stated quite well by Lady Ellen.Fear of the unfamiliar is the driver of prejudice as an initial reaction. Rejection of the stranger is the driver of prejudice as it is more commonly understood. Such prejudice is based on group identity and the human need to belong to a group and to particpate in that group, part of which is expressed as much as in who is excluded as in who is included. But it would be true to say that this natural human behaviour is turned to other purposes by those who seek to acquire, maintain and extend power for themselves as leaders of their group and by the members too, who benefit from the overall acquisition, maintenance and extension of power by the group over other groups - whether that power be expressed in terms of access to and control of natural resources or more direct control over other groups. Whether who is in the group and who is out of the group is expressed by skin colour, faith or whatever is secondary to this mechanism - the same mechanism would find another expression were such obvious differences not available to discern members from non-members.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 24

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 3:14:41 PM

RealSub58

Posts: 1073
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
Maybe someday archeologists will find something.

candystripper

Didn't Darwin?

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 25

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 3:36:53 PM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline

lol

did he name the birds adamn, eve and lilith ;)

(in reply to RealSub58)

Post #: 26

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 3:39:59 PM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealSub58

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

not a portion of the bible.

quote:

A few points.

The name "Lilith" does not appear in the bible.

Isaiah 34:14

"Goat demons shall greet each other; there too the lilith will repose."

Question: "Who was Lilith / Lillith? Does the Bible say anything about Adam having another wife before Eve?"

Answer: There are legends that Adam had a wife before Eve who was named Lilith, but this is not found in the Bible. The legends vary significantly, but they all essentially agree that Lilith left Adam because she did not want to submit to him. According to the legends, Lilith was an evil, wicked woman who committed adultery with Satan and produced a race of evil creatures. None of this is true. There is no biblical basis whatsoever for these concepts. There is no one in the Bible named Lilith.

The passage most often pointed to as evidence for Lilith is Isaiah 34:14, which in the NRSV reads, "there too Lilith shall repose." This is a poor translation. Every other major translation of the Bible reads something to the effect of "night creature" or "screech owl." Even if "demon monster named Lilith" was the proper translation of the Hebrew word, Adam is nowhere even hinted at in this passage or its context. Whatever the Lilith was, it is not given any connection whatsoever to Adam or Creation.

Another commonly used support for Lilith is the differing Creation accounts in Genesis chapters 1-2. Some claim that the woman in Genesis 1 was Lilith, with the woman in Genesis 2 being Eve. This is completely ludicrous. Rather, Genesis chapter 2 is a "closer look" at the creation of Adam and Eve as recorded in Genesis chapter 1. The Bible specifically says that Adam and Eve were the first human beings ever created (Genesis 1:26-28; 2:18-25). This "Lilith" myth is popular in some radical feminist movements because Lilith is an example of a woman refusing to submit to male headship. While there are myths outside of the Word of God regarding Lilith, her complete absence from Scripture demonstrates that she is nothing more than a myth.

Recommended Resource: Biblical Creationism by Henry Morris.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Lillith.html

lol fun not..the net...pro and anti sources enough..now we need to know who is right

the bible is incomplete
Like the gospel of Marie Magdalena and JUdas
perhaps one day we will read more about lillith.

There are in other religions demons called lilit ..perhaps it comes from there.

here a nice read...info about llith from other religions/books
http://www.gnosis.org/lilith.htm

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/1/2008 3:44:25 PM >

(in reply to RealSub58)

Post #: 27

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 4:03:13 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealSub58

Rather, Genesis chapter 2 is a "closer look" at the creation of Adam and Eve as recorded in Genesis chapter 1.

Genesis is a amalgam of earlier texts. Principally, these are the so-called "E" and "J" documents. While the earlier texts are for the most part woven together relatively seamlessly, the "E" and "J" creation stories were just too different to reconcile. So the priests included both versions (our version of Genesis is called the "P" text). In the "E" text segment, which appears first, deity creates man and woman together, "in our image," to inherit a world that is fundamentally good. In the "J" text story, Eve is created second and the garden has a snake problem.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/1/2008 4:14:49 PM >

(in reply to RealSub58)

Post #: 28

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 4:16:34 PM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

I just saw 'The DaVinci Code' again last night. I had heard of the Council of Nicaea, and I knew that some writings were included and others were excluded as a 'bible' was agreed upon for use by the early Christians.

Was there really a Gospel According to Mary Magdelene? That would just astound me. One of the most illogical parts of Religious Instruction for me as a Catholic UM was the whole business about Mary Magdelene. There during Christ's life on earth; there at the Crucifixtion; there to see the Risen Lord; and yet somehow a dirty, useless, irrelevant character? I never did quite figure that out.

According to this web site I found, yes, a text known as the Gospel According to Mary Magedalene does exist. In part it is supposed to read:

quote:

When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her. But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, "Say what you (wish to) say I about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas." Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things. He questioned them about the Savior: "Did he really speak with a woman without our knowledge (and) not openly? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did he prefer her to us?"

Then Mary wept and said to Peter, "My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?" Levi answered and said to Peter, "Peter, you have always been hot-tempered. Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries. But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect man and acquire him for ourselves as he commanded us, and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said. When [ ...] and they began to go forth [to] proclaim and to preach.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/the_gospel_of_mary_magdalene.htm

Is what this web site says in fact true? The Church I knew growing up could not have been more anti-woman, and as far as I can see, that hasn't changed.

I wonder why Catholics are not more like Jews, free to wander into a variety of texts and adopt views from the mystical to the legalistic?
candystripper

.

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/1/2008 4:19:25 PM >

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 29

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 4:20:02 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Who benefits the most from hatred and distrust of other peoples? Weapons manufacturers and the leaders who use xenophobia to stay in power.

Any who believes government is the solution and not the problem, who desires more government and not less, has a vested interest in emphasizing man's inhumanity to man.

Who benefits? Fascists, Socialists, Communists, Democrats, Republicans (in particular, 100 Senators and 435 Representatives), and civil rights lawyers.

_____________________________

(in reply to hlen5)

Post #: 30

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 4:23:23 PM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline

http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/gospels/gosmary.htm

They called it gospel of mary...because it s about her. What the true purpose was..when it was written..we never know ofcourse.

quote:

Is what this web site says in fact true? The Church I knew growing up could not have been more anti-woman, and as far as I can see, that hasn't changed.

the church is not "the religion"
They adjusted to bible to fit their needs. Many parts were thrown out..to make it handy

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/1/2008 4:25:37 PM >

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 31

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 5:24:44 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Who benefits the most from hatred and distrust of other peoples? Weapons manufacturers and the leaders who use xenophobia to stay in power.

Who benefits? Fascists, Socialists, Communists, Democrats, Republicans (in particular, 100 Senators and 435 Representatives), and civil rights lawyers.

Wrong. The correct answer is.....

BANKS

K.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 32

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 7:34:19 PM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

As with others, I think what we know of the bible is not the complete works, there was perhaps more to it, but possibly it has been politicised through it's history to suit whoever. Therefore I cannot take any of it as viable. I referenced Genesis as most know it in it's simplicity purely because most I know have an understanding this way, they being normal common or garden people.

Lilith I knew about from an early age, from part of my religious studies at school some twenty six years ago. then, a demon she was not, but in the garden of eden before eve. To note, the school was not a religious school, it was multi faith.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 33

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 8:37:28 PM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline

I don't see how banks would particularly benefit from xenophobia. Banks are in the business of selling money. There doesn't have to be any ideology associated with said money. Banks are impartial to where any legally obtained money comes from.

_____________________________

My fave Thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2626198/mpage_1/tm.htm

One time "Phallus Expert Extraordinaire"

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 34

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 8:54:38 PM

ThatDaveGuy69

Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

I lost all interest in Genesis when they stopped performing "Behind the Lines" in concert.

And then there's all that really awful Phil Collins music...

~Dave

_____________________________

He said I'd blown a seal. I said fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of this!
What happens in the event horizon STAYS in the Event Horizon!
I have zero tolerance for Zero Tolerance

(in reply to hlen5)

Post #: 35

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 9:02:18 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

I don't see how banks would particularly benefit from xenophobia. Banks are in the business of selling money. There doesn't have to be any ideology associated with said money. Banks are impartial to where any legally obtained money comes from.

It takes money to fight wars. Lots of it. The connection with banks? To quote Willie Sutton, "that's where the money is."

K.

(in reply to hlen5)

Post #: 36

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 9:02:33 PM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline

There was a titanic volcanic eruption around 70K years ago. Anthropologists think only about 1000 people survived. also around the same time in the middle east and eastern Africa a huge flood laid down feet of sediment. Maybe the creation story is universal from the survivors of that event and god was who caused it, adam and eve, the "first".

or cthulhu made them out of his gibbering madness.

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to hlen5)

Post #: 37

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 9:24:42 PM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline

Banks don't need the ideology of aggression to move money. Aggression and xenophobia must come before selling people money to buy guns with. Banks could also profit if humankind was more altruistic. If people were inherently altruistic, couldn't banks sell them money for helping their fellow man?

_____________________________

My fave Thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2626198/mpage_1/tm.htm

One time "Phallus Expert Extraordinaire"

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)

Post #: 38

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 9:31:05 PM

Shekicromaster

Posts: 70
Joined: 4/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

A few points.

The name "Lilith" does not appear in the bible.

As to common ancestry, the bible is definitely incorrect as to all of humanity being descended either from 2 people 6000 years ago or from 8 closely related people 4000 years ago. However we are all related. for accurate information you need to investigate "Y chromosome Adam" and "Mitochodrial Eve" who are the most recent male and female ancestors. Note that these people lived at different times and in different places.

A Jewish friend of mine once told mi about a rabbi of theirs that had calculated on the scriptural basis the "age" of the earth in a rather accurate measure, that is giving her much more than a few thousand years. Unfortunately I don't remember annithing more specific from that conversation :(

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 39

RE: Genesis - 11/1/2008 9:43:08 PM

JumpingJax

Posts: 155
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I lost all interest in Genesis when they stopped performing "Behind the Lines" in concert.

And then there's all that really awful Phil Collins music...

You know I loved all that Phil Collins music..... Grew up listening to him through the 80's and then when I started having children he did the Tarzan soundtrack. Perfect.
- But Your music is your music and that's ok....

(in reply to ThatDaveGuy69)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Genesis

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109