RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine

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MzMia -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 8:22:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Seems to me that the health care system in Canada and UK has most problems because there are too many bureaucrats and not enough front line staff. Saving their own asses and not knowing what the hell they are doing and not listening to the people who do make a difference. The systems need streamlined, the money directed to the nurses, doctors, technicians, support staff, not the bloody managers and their never ending assistants. I worked in the NHS for 8 years and the Canadian system for three. Neither of them is perfect, people suffer and die, needlessly, however the US is damn scary regarding basic care and ongoing treatment unless you can pay for it. Lucy Hello Lucy, thank you for posting. I love to hear stories from citizens that actually live in countries with Nationalized Health Care. I have such mixed emotions on the subject. Are you happy with the standards and level of health care that is available to you? Do you think your system is fair? How are the senior citizens treated and those with chronic long term health conditions? I have heard of people in Canada coming to the USA to get certain operations. Please give us some more information, thank you!

Kirata -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 8:28:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Neither of them is perfect, people suffer and die, needlessly, however the US is damn scary regarding basic care and ongoing treatment unless you can pay for it. I think that sums it up nicely. On the one hand, given everything I've heard about it I agree with the article's position on national health care. On the other hand, I don't think a free market in health care is the answer. Using cosmetic surgery as an exemplar fails as an analogy for emergency and ongoing-care medicine. K.

thishereboi -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 9:31:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Have you ever lived in a country that has national healthcare? It's pretty fucking fantastic - so much less expensive for everybody in the long run - but perhaps you enjoy paying out of the skin of your ass and relish the idea of being taxed on your healthcare plan [&:]. I have never lived in a country with national healthcare. However I have experienced federal run clinics and hospitals. The idea of those same people taking over national health care scares the hell out of me. ....so i assume you favour scrapping the current Federally run US military in favour of a privately run for-profit one? Just because you can point at something run badly by Federal authorities doesn't mean they're all badly run. i can equally point at some pretty badly run private companies. Never assume anything.

thishereboi -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 9:33:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi I have never lived in a country with national healthcare. However I have experienced federal run clinics and hospitals. The idea of those same people taking over national health care scares the hell out of me. The same Doctors that work in the NHS also work for the private hospitals here in the UK. Given the size of our health service, it does pretty good. edited cause I read that wrong.

thishereboi -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 9:35:32 PM)
I wasn't talking about the doctors...I was refering to the administration.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 9:37:46 PM)
quote: Actually, I'm not sure that that is entirely true. Certain hospitals must take the uninsured, but there are private hospitals that do not. I think it has to do with whether they get government funding. And one of the local hospitals in Decatur, AL (near Huntsville, where I live) is shutting down because of the influx of illegal immigrants who are uninsured but who must be treated. And that isn't a whack on illegal immigrants...it's just the reality for this particular hospital. Emergency rooms have to take you. If you come into the ER while you're having a heart attack, they can't tell you to piss off. When you can't pay, the costs get absorbed by the hospital. The costs are passed on to everyone that is covered, which is one reason medical care is so expensive.

MzMia -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 9:48:28 PM)
I just asked a friend in Canada what he thinks of his healthcare system. This is what he told me: Our health care sucks. It does not cover dental, vision and prescriptions- which are the biggest expenses for most people. Yes it covers dr office and emerg but if you need an operation you will need to wait and if you are seriously sick - good fuckin luck. It also results in all our good doctors and nurses leaving to go to the usa. Again, not sure how I feel about this. I certainly feel we need health care options for those with no health coverage, but I don't think I want "nationalized" or socialized health care at this time. I am not totally against it, but it is something that will need to be seriously researched prior to implementation. Until then, we need to think of a way to provide free/reduced price/moderatly priced health care, maybe on a sliding scale basis for those with NO health insurance. I am thinking we should be able to provide insurance for those with NO insurance, without changing the entire structure of our health care system. I have been on MOST sides of the fence. Growing up I had military/dependant coverage, I have had years with no insurance, great insurance and sucky or spotty insurance coverage. *Right now, I have excellent* insurance and I don't want it to change! Hell no! [sm=wife.gif] Again, I hope we can provide insurance/coverage for those with no insurance, without reducing the coverage and insurance for those that LOVE their insurance coverage.**

Alfonzo -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 10:01:22 PM)
I am from Canada and while our heqalthcare doesnt cover dental it does cover emergency dental. If you break your tooth you are covered. Now as for prescriptions and eyeglass and dental almost every benefit package i have ever had covers part of this from 60% and up. Those on welfare get it free. Those not working well they still get free medical. Yes we wait for optional surgery and we wait for big operations like transplants but I think most do. I have never been seriously ill but i have been in the hospitl many times for stupid things and i have gone to the doctor many times over flus and colds and other everyday things, I have had a baby born in a wonderful hospital and I love the fact that when i leave i just walk out. No bills, no going intop debt from getting sick, i just leave and its covered. It's not perfect and like i said i am not elderly or extremely ill but when i need it its there and i havent gone broke using it.

MzMia -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 10:04:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfonzo I am from Canada and while our heqalthcare doesnt cover dental it does cover emergency dental. If you break your tooth you are covered. Now as for prescriptions and eyeglass and dental almost every benefit package i have ever had covers part of this from 60% and up. Those on welfare get it free. Those not working well they still get free medical. Yes we wait for optional surgery and we wait for big operations like transplants but I think most do. I have never been seriously ill but i have been in the hospitl many times for stupid things and i have gone to the doctor many times over flus and colds and other everyday things, I have had a baby born in a wonderful hospital and I love the fact that when i leave i just walk out. No bills, no going intop debt from getting sick, i just leave and its covered. It's not perfect and like i said i am not elderly or extremely ill but when i need it its there and i havent gone broke using it. Thanks for the update, cutie.[:D] Oh! back to the topic. Humm, I am going to send this to my Canadian friend. Sounds, like you have MUCH better coverage than he does! He told me that your NATIONAL health care does not cover dental,vision and prescriptions, again. He said your employer must be covering dental, vision and prescriptions. [;)]

HalfShyHalfWild -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 10:04:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou One of the big reasons I am for a national healthcare system is that we are already paying for the uninsured. When someone shows up at the emergency room, they have to treat them. When they can't pay, who do you think the costs get passed too? We pay for all of this whether we want to or not. We pay for it in so many ways. The costs that are incurred from uninsured patients is enormous. I honestly think it would be cheaper just to provide medical coverage for everyone. Of course that's only a practical reason. Morally, I think it's wrong for someone to have their entire life destroyed because of medical bills they can't pay. This is pretty much where I stand as well. I don't get the point of not going national with it. We are paying for it already. Something needs to be done and I have yet to hear a better alternative.

dreamysubmale -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 10:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper bestbabynyc, what on earth makes you think the US is about to adopt a National Health Care System? I think you can rest easy, if it worries you, as the greed of the pharameactical companies, insurance industry, etc. is most likely powerful enough to block such a thing from happening at least during your lifetime. starglre, I have heard some 'horror' stories from people dependent on their NHS about waiting 2 years for a hip replacement, etc. I admit I'm not entirely comfy with the government getting in the health care delivery system...but I am quite comfy with furnishing taxpayer-paid care to the poor and uninsured, of which we have many. candystripper [sm=pole.gif] We have a publicly funded healthcare system, in addition to private hospitals and providers. Treatments are generaly very good and are free or subsidised. Many doctors are providers in both the public and private hospitals. Dental treatment is free for under 18s. Unfortunately, since the Government started to fiddle with the system and appointed Hospital Boards to run the taxpayer-funded Hospitals as if they were Private Corporation, things turned badly. It resulted in a lot more employment of back office administrators and board members with no medical or health knowledge with six and seven figure salaries Even with the pouring of billions of dollars the current public health system is failing to keep up with the demands being placed on it, particularly through elective procedures, and will continue to do so. Waiting lists have trebled and fewer people are getting operations. Deaths occur while in waiting lists. Patients get send home early and often die or return with complications that are more serious or send to Australia for services. Government can’t or won’t provide subsidized new life saving medicines due to high costs which in turn costs or shortens lives. However, despite of all it's faults, we’re lucky enough to have access to an enviable range of comprehensive healthcare services. Our public healthcare system is not substandard to the private healthcare system. The doctors and nurses will treat you with the utmost respect and professionalism as if you were been treated in a private hospital. Moreover, if a country of only four million can afford such a system, I cannot see the reason why the US wont. How can you preach Democracy when you deny your most vulnerable, the poor and uninsured such a basic right? And by the way, its not “socialised medicine” I’d rather call it “compassionate medicine” PS: Please excuse me if there is grammar or spelling mistakes. English isn’t my native language.

celticlord2112 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 10:21:11 PM)
quote: How can you preach Democracy when you deny your most vulnerable, the poor and uninsured such a basic right? Democracy has nothing to do with healthcare, which, btw, is not even a right, much less a basic right. Basic rights == life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. After that you're on your own.

DomKen -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 10:39:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Similiarly I don't read moonie owned publications for information on progressive politics or science and I don't check with catholic publications for news about birth control techniques. I know that sounds logical to you. But dismissing something because of who wrote it is prejudice, not reason. K. But I'm not dismissing it because of who wrote it. I'm dismissing it because the authors have a well known bias on the subject.

celticlord2112 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 10:42:22 PM)
quote: But I'm not dismissing it because of who wrote it. I'm dismissing it because the authors have a well known bias on the subject. In other words, you are dismissing it because of who wrote it, but don't want to sound prejudicial.[8\|]

Kirata -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:06:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'm dismissing it because the authors have a well known bias on the subject. The problems the author cites with respect to the performance of nationalized health care delivery systems cannot be dismissed on the basis that he believes a free market in health care would work better. K.

DomKen -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:09:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: But I'm not dismissing it because of who wrote it. I'm dismissing it because the authors have a well known bias on the subject. In other words, you are dismissing it because of who wrote it, but don't want to sound prejudicial.[8\|] It's funny how certain conservatives dismiss anything from a non conservative source and claim that isn't biased but want to complain when that same POV is turned around on them. Theres a word for that.

ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:22:16 PM)
CL: Not sure if your "basic rights" comment was meant to be flip or serious. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." This is from the Declaration of Independnce. It's a great document but it is not law. It is how we told King George to sit & spin. Notice also that the text reads "among these" which clearly means that they aren't necesarily the only rights, just the ones the FF's were willing to commit to. A government can, at any time, add to or subtract from the rights it guarantees to it's citizens. In the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights was added to specifically guarantee the rights therein. It it possible, at least in theory, to add an amendment that would define health care as a right of every citizen. Ain't gonna happen - ever - but the process exists. So far, I've read a lot of anti-NHS speachifyin'. Let me ask this: given the realities we have here in the US, how would you change things to make sure everyone has at least some basic level of health insurance? Let's cut the crap and cut to the chase. Use me as an example. I've been unemployed for 14 months. I have a wife and 2 children. How would you change things so that my family and I are insured? ~Dave

Kirata -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:30:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen but want to complain when that same POV is turned around on them. Theres a word for that. So your policy is to make an ass out of yourself when you think some other guy is acting like one? K.

celticlord2112 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:30:00 PM)
quote: Let me ask this: given the realities we have here in the US, how would you change things to make sure everyone has at least some basic level of health insurance? Let's cut the crap and cut to the chase. Use me as an example. I've been unemployed for 14 months. I have a wife and 2 children. How would you change things so that my family and I are insured? Simple answer: I wouldn't.

MzMia -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:32:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69 CL: Not sure if your "basic rights" comment was meant to be flip or serious. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." This is from the Declaration of Independnce. It's a great document but it is not law. It is how we told King George to sit & spin. Notice also that the text reads "among these" which clearly means that they aren't necesarily the only rights, just the ones the FF's were willing to commit to. A government can, at any time, add to or subtract from the rights it guarantees to it's citizens. In the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights was added to specifically guarantee the rights therein. It it possible, at least in theory, to add an amendment that would define health care as a right of every citizen. Ain't gonna happen - ever - but the process exists. So far, I've read a lot of anti-NHS speachifyin'. Let me ask this: given the realities we have here in the US, how would you change things to make sure everyone has at least some basic level of health insurance? Let's cut the crap and cut to the chase. Use me as an example. I've been unemployed for 14 months. I have a wife and 2 children. How would you change things so that my family and I are insured? ~Dave Dave is on point as usual![;)] Even though I love my healthcare you have to think of everyone. What if I lose my job tomorrow? What about my loved ones that might find themselves without health insurance? At some point you have to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, in life. We need health care coverage that is available to everyone. As much as I hate taxes {and few hate taxes more than I do}, I would even be willing to have slightly higher taxes to cover coverage for those that do not have health insurance. Dave, I really hope things get better for you and your lovely family soon. There but for the grace of GOD, go many of us. Anyone's life situation can change on a dime {especially these days}, we need to think about other people.

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