RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine

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Shekicromaster -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:32:41 PM)
wiki on the human rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights Human rights refers to the "basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled."[1] Examples of rights and freedoms which are often thought of as human rights include civil and political rights, such as the right to life and liberty, freedom of expression, and equality before the law; and social, cultural and economic rights, including the right to participate in culture, the right to food, the right to work, and the right to education. “ All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. ” —Article 1 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)[2]

dreamysubmale -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:41:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: How can you preach Democracy when you deny your most vulnerable, the poor and uninsured such a basic right? Democracy has nothing to do with healthcare, which, btw, is not even a right, much less a basic right. Basic rights == life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. After that you're on your own. Maybe I should have said “basic needs” instead of “basic rights”? However, the right to good health needs needs hardly to be stressed in a Democratic society. This and among other basic needs is the first step to distinguish us from animals. Health care is a basic right, a human right IMO. Individuals have the right for health care according to their needs. Have you heard of doctors without borders? What drives them? Certainly not greed. I am far from socialist in case you wonder. I am true blue capitalist as we say down here….lol

celticlord2112 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/1/2008 11:59:28 PM)
quote: Maybe I should have said “basic needs” instead of “basic rights”? Wouldn't make a difference. quote: However, the right to good health needs needs hardly to be stressed in a Democratic society. This and among other basic needs is the first step to distinguish us from animals. Homo sapiens is an animal, and it is folly to pretend otherwise. quote: Health care is a basic right, a human right IMO. Individuals have the right for health care according to their needs. No, they do not. quote: I am far from socialist in case you wonder. I am true blue capitalist as we say down here….lol How far from socialism are you really, given your paraphrasing of Karl Marx? ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." -- Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875)

dreamysubmale -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 12:06:42 AM)
Dave, hi What happens to a person in your circumstances if (touch wood) he/she needs to be hospitalized? Would they be admitted or refused?

Kirata -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 12:12:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 How far from socialism are you really, given your paraphrasing of Karl Marx? ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." -- Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875) Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. In Socialism, ownership and control of land, capital, and the means of production and distribution are vested in the State. Objecting to the means should not commit us to objecting to the end. K.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 12:12:36 AM)
Celtic, I tend to agree with you on a lot of issues. But this is one where I can't. I know a lot of good people that have no medical coverage, and it's through no fault of their own. I am not covered right now. I got laid off from a good job in May, and I've had to do what I've had to do. But I am young, healthy, and without dependents. So it's not causing me lots of problems. I also have family that could help me out in a jam, but a lot of folks don't have that. I know a lot of folks like that. A good childhood friend of mine is in similar circumstances, and he is married with two dependents. He doesn't have extended family to help him. I assure you that he is one of the hardest working, solid fellows I know. He and others shouldn't be teetering on the razor's edge if an unexpected illness or injury occurred. I am not advocating a European or Canadian style system. But we need to do something. No one should have to face financial ruin because of an unexpected illness or injury.

dreamysubmale -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 12:28:27 AM)
quote: However, the right to good health needs needs hardly to be stressed in a Democratic society. This and among other basic needs is the first step to distinguish us from animals. Homo sapiens is an animal, and it is folly to pretend otherwise. quote: Health care is a basic right, a human right IMO. Individuals have the right for health care according to their needs. No, they do not. quote: I am far from socialist in case you wonder. I am true blue capitalist as we say down here….lol How far from socialism are you really, given your paraphrasing of Karl Marx? ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." -- Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875) Honestly now…who uses this term in every day life except anthropologists? I would have prefered your feed back on the subject matter. I know who Carl Marx is (was?). Not familiar with his teachings thought. The only quote I know of him is about religion and it happens to be my favorite. I am a compasionate capitalist… lol By the way CL, you show offline but you manage to send messages. How this is possible?

awmslave -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 1:31:05 AM)
National single payer system would be very difficult to introduce because: 1. the government is corrupt and unable to radically change anything (for example Hillarycare in 90-s was a decent proposal, killed by medical lobby, Hillarycare 2008 would have made huge gains to health insuarance providers, and not surprisigly they donated plenty for her campaign), 2. even in case if national healthcare would be introduced, US private healtcare business will attach itself to it the way that skyrockets the cost The healthcare in US today is not free market based (no need to prove it, just look at ridiculous prices for simple things and huge incomes of people involved). If to create free market in healthcare arena the prices will come down, healtcare becomes widely affordable and better quality as well. I see no reason why workplace needs to deal with healthcare. The last raises the cost significantly. US imports lot of Mexicans for fieldwork, why not import doctors from India who would work for 5 times less pay?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 1:57:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shekicromaster wiki on the human rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights Human rights refers to the "basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled."[1] Examples of rights and freedoms which are often thought of as human rights include civil and political rights, such as the right to life and liberty, freedom of expression, and equality before the law; and social, cultural and economic rights, including the right to participate in culture, the right to food, the right to work, and the right to education. “ All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. ” —Article 1 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)[2] Good post. Of course, according to some, the US is so far above the rest of the world that we don't have to conform to any stinking laws. There's no equality before the law here. There's no right to life if one is a black person of sustandard intelligence in Texas or Alabama. There's no right to work, there's no right to food, there's no right to education. Americans have the right to try and pull thenmselves up by their bootstraps, despite the not-so-subtle racism against Blacks, Hispanics, and native Americans (Around 2000 my ex and I drove up to Second Mesa, in McCain's territory. Got our car filled up by some white trash Gomer who probably came from Appalachia. Don't remember the words he used, but I was shocked. And I ran across that attitude all around that area. From what I saw in Germany, there's much less racism and cultural hatred than in the US, even thought there is admittedly some tension between the immigrant Turks and the natives (including Turks who immigrated earlier). It's very complicated there, though, because one has the assimilation of East germany at the same time as the legal and illegal immigration from Eastern Europe and North Africa.

meatcleaver -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 2:09:39 AM)
After reading the article one can safely say it is just about 100% propaganda. I assume the writer has shares in the private medical industry. Just a couple of FACTS. Americans pay 100% more than Brits on healthcare, and around 60% more than Germans or French, with the rest of Europe being somewhere in between. Though with wild fluctuations in the money markets that is going to vary now. The citizens of all western European countries live longer than their American counter parts. Admitted, some of that could be down to life styke as opposed to medicine.

meatcleaver -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 2:37:41 AM)
Capitalism and socialism are economic theories and are nothing to do with freedom, both do not work in their pure form. Socialism was a reaction to the failure of capitalism, that is why western countries have mixed economies. So capitalists who point to the short comings of scientific socialism to show socialism doesn't work while not pointing to the short comings of laisez faire capitalism to show capitalism doesn't work, are wilfully ignorant. As for freedom, freedom is not economics, Karl Marx recognized that so people who quote Marx as a way of proving Marxism isn't freedom are once again showing their ignorance and have probably not read Marx. Marx was a philosopher and a political thinker responding to the time in which he lived, which was in the epoch of laisez faire capitalism, when captialism had reduced 80% of the population of Britain to more or less slavery, 20 -30 people could be living in a cellar without sanitation, a city of 300,000 people (Manchester) had three cesspits and where the average life expectancy of a working man was 35, and desease was almost constantly at epidemic proportions. That was why laisez faire capitalism failed and socialism was formulated and eventually to stop revolution, many socialist policies were introduced into the socio-economic system. As for Marx, and I quote the man "I am not a Marxist". Marx understood he was responding to a situation that was fluid and that his ideas could not be carved in stone, which is what people like CL try to portray when they quote Marx but then, though he claims to have read Marx, he either hasn't or hasn't fuully understood Marx.

stagerle -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 2:44:18 AM)
Ok things are different in the States but has the private sector really done such a good job of things in the last couple of months? At the moment it seems government and by extension the likes of you and me are bailing out the banks. I am interested in the way that the word Socialism is being banded about. What does it mean to the average American ?

corysub -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 3:34:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver After reading the article one can safely say it is just about 100% propaganda. I assume the writer has shares in the private medical industry. Just a couple of FACTS. Americans pay 100% more than Brits on healthcare, and around 60% more than Germans or French, with the rest of Europe being somewhere in between. Though with wild fluctuations in the money markets that is going to vary now. The citizens of all western European countries live longer than their American counter parts. Admitted, some of that could be down to life styke as opposed to medicine. Yep, the Brits enjoy paying 100pct less than Americans on Healthcare. They also enjoy paying around four times more for petrol than we do in the U.S. The number is a moving target but I just paid $2.55 for a gallon of gas..You can transalate that into litres.based on the $/L or $/Euro at what, roughly 4-1? We also pay a 6% sales tax, and some states have NO sales tax..compared to what,,,a 17% VAT tax? Wasn't VAT supposed to be around 10% as when it first was put on the people..errr...Free Healthcare maybe...Government does not GIVE anything away for free...someone has to pay for it...Raise your hand..it's YOU! http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/default.asp

Aneirin -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 4:04:43 AM)
Perhaps the super wealthy pharmaceutical companies should fund healthcare as it is they use us all for experimentation and proving of their products. It is interesting to know that many medications are licensed as safe for human use, but the actual use, the feedback generated helps the drug companies refine and make better products. My doctor is interested in all the effects I notice about the medication, he types these into his database and seems more interested in the effects than other things I say. I challenged him once why he only types in effects I report, but not anything else, he was cagey with his reply, to which I said I am aware the medication I take is licensed as safe for human use, but what it actually does beyond the desired aim is unknown and I suspect the makers of stuff are interested in doctor's feedback. The various drug company headed note paper, pens and calenders around the surgery suggests as much. Not that I am bothered that much, because the stuff works and I am happy with it, but I do feel patients are always part of an ongoing trial and as such, drug companies should be paying into the system. Socialized medicine, I am all for it, remember, not everyone is in a position to pay and for a nation to be industrious, it has to have a healthy workforce. Ignore health, perhaps say good bye to wealth. If that is socialism, then bring it on, as I believe in the good of the whole, not the individual. Would anyone not like to have a reasonable standard of living, reasonable healthcare, reasonable means of travel, or is the quest for personal wealth so consuming that the individual is more important, wealth when others around about are poor often through no fault of their own.

pahunkboy -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 4:25:40 AM)
I talked jenny into NO lipitor- they prescribe it when the cholestral is borderline. and it wrecks the liver. in her workds, "I am on enough meds"

pahunkboy -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 4:34:46 AM)
ya know- there is no such thing as free. if you want people on board, you must be better at detailing the cost in taxes to fund the new grid. the waste on medicare part d, or pills is astounding. no bid contracts. But- with the massive bail out that is sinking the country this is not an issue. Not in the least. It is all window dressing to do an election. which is all about cult- and NO SUBSTANCE. ill repeat, NO SUBSTANCE. BTW- Social Security is a good program, so yes poster, they do a bang up job.

MrRodgers -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 4:44:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheBanshee quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 It's not "socialised medicine" if we're all paying for it through our taxes, is it? Hillary had the best plan for National Healthcare. I think we should have a National Healthcare Plan, we're the last industrialised country to not have one. Yes, the government is doing a bang up job with medicare and social security aren't they? YES they are. They are doing just fine and I know several people that would homeless or dead...without them. Social security BTW, is paid for by the previous generation's workers shared equally with their employers. WE have no problems in either program but for the shameless spending in congress.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 4:52:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Have you ever lived in a country that has national healthcare? It's pretty fucking fantastic - so much less expensive for everybody in the long run - but perhaps you enjoy paying out of the skin of your ass and relish the idea of being taxed on your healthcare plan [&:]. Tax dollars already pay for a great deal of healthcare - simply not the healthcare of the person paying the taxes. Medicare and Medicaid come out of the public tax coffers - though at a significantly lower percentage than things like the military budget and raises for the members of congrease. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who "fall through the cracks" where medicare and medicaid are concerned. My father is one of them. Until recently, he's been private pay in the nursing home where he's been since his stroke 2 years ago. When he had insurance, they wouldn't cover a nursing home stay - although they would cover a Once A Week visit by a nurse or nurse practioner from one of the home health companies. Once he'd been medically retired for a year - his insurance dropped him like a lead balloon - mainly because he was costing them more than his premiums brought in, by quite a bit. Once the insurance was gone, so was the prescription coverage - and his Prescriptions Alone cost in excess of $2000/month - not per year, per Month. Add that to the $4000/month that the nursing home costs, and it's about twice his monthly income from retirement pension and SSDisability. But that income - which amounts to right around half his monthly expenses - is considered to high for him to qualify for medicare or medicaid. He had money set aside for his retirement - it has run out, just trying to stay on top of the costs of his prescriptions and the nursing home bill - he's pretty much bancrupt, even though he was a thrifty man. The one thing he didn't count on, when planning and saving for retirement, was an illness that didn't kill him outright.

MrRodgers -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 5:20:07 AM)
The MYTH of socialized medicine is from the right or the capitalists among them, just that...myths. The word socialism is and has been used as a byproduct of communism for propaganda purposes. Most everything you hear or read about socialism today is unmitigated bullshit in order to perserve the profits of ALL of corporate America and will refuse the label of *socialized* investment banking when thrown back at them. WE have socialized business and going back as far as 80 years. For my argument and what we could really accomplish in this country and what we in fact do and have had...it is called a 'single-payer' health insurance program at the federal level. we have a socialized* or single-payer *health insurance* program for banks that insure private, retail, bank deposits, the coverage of which was just recently raised by the insurer no less (us) to $250,000 per bank account. Aren't we the most generous socialists now ? (sic) Interesting how we don't call that 'government run banking.' But being federally insured (FDIC) is a federal entitlement for bankers. we have a socialized* agricultural products health insurance otherwise generally known as farm crop insurance. This works similar to the above banking insurance. I as a farmer or banker am entitled to join up and pay a token regulated insurance premium and the federal govt. provides that crop health insurance and must actually budget taxpayer money to pay the claims. we have an overseas private (socialized) investment health insurance* program. I as a private citizen can, before I invest overseas, take out investment insurance buy joining up and paying a small premium and the federal govt. (taxpayers) insure this risk. This is an investor entitlement to socialized investment health inurance of my private investment through the OPIC . Are these our real American values ? For some it is and far too many of which give us an un-ending diatribe about our loss of family values. What family values when we don't provide the same insurance for our children's health ?

Evility -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 6:38:46 AM)
A fellow who I chat with online lives in The Netherlands I believe - if not it is some country in Europe with a governmental health care system. He is having some surgery done in the near future. He was planning a trip to the US to visit a few of us in person but he is on a waiting list for this surgery and does not know when it will happen and cannot leave the country until it does, as I understand the situation. That is what I am afraid of.

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