RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 7:28:35 AM

kittinSol

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Ever lived in France?

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 7:36:52 AM

Marc2b

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I live near the border with Canada and it is not uncommon to see Ontario license plates in the parking lots of our doctor’s offices. That pretty much tells me all I need to know about socialized medicine.

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 7:44:27 AM

MontrealPhoenix

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~FR to noone in particular~

Okay here goes. Speaking as someone who works in a local Montreal hospital here are some of the current waiting times: to see a specialist 7 months to a year, hip replacement 1/2-2 years, testing such as MRI 6+ months, getting the MRI read another 2+ months as we are short of radiologists to read them and typists to type the report. At "my" hospital, we recently closed beds in our ICU and CCU Units. Why? Not enough nurses to safely run them.

In theory we have a great Healthcare System here in Canada, but that's dependent on access, which sucks at best. And btw NO dental and eyecare aren't covered, private insurance is needed for that. We now have private healthcare centres but guess what, the doctors and radiologists who work there also work in our hospitals. Where do you think they are going to be, in the hospitals covered by Medicare or the private clinics where people pay for better, faster care? You got it, the private clinics. So the line that private clinics reduce waiting times is false.

Yes our Healthcare system is better - much better - than that in the US, but it's far from the perfect model touted but those who want socialised medicare in the US. There are serious flaws which need to be fixed in order for our system to work properly. Let's start with the fact that there are more administrative offices than beds in our hospitals. Not that it matters because of the chronic shortage of nurses, doctors, and radiologists. Then there is the problem of a shortage of support staff to run the clinics. If a secretary leaves, often she isn't replaced and her work is given to another secretary. Burnout of support staff and nurses is becoming an epidemic and that's no exaggeration. Add to that the fact that our hospitals in Quebec - by LAW - aren't allowed to run a deficit and it just gets worse.

Meanwhile, our local Gov't just spent half a million dollars on a new slogan for Montreal a gross missuse of money. Our Federal Gov't spends (wastes) money on the Military and unnecessary elections - Stephen Harper wasn't at the end of his term when he called our recent election, he just thought he could win a majority gov't, and didn't. Furthermore it's well known that he intends on continuing to call useless elections just to show he can win them.

Obviously our Government's priorities are totally screwed up. We call Harper Bush Jr or Bush Lite, that's exactly what he is. Doesn't look like things are going to change any time soon either.

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 7:46:56 AM

kittinSol

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No system is perfect, but other systems are better than in America where dozens of millions of people are basically fucked if they get sick, and are left to suffer and/or die for lack of health insurance (which might not cover them anyway, because the insurers are crooks).

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 7:47:16 AM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Ever lived in France?

France seems to be the Gold Standard when it comes to Universal Health Care kitten.

Being sick in France ; French social security ; retirement in France

Okay, is MzMia going to get paid for doing internet research?
Just kidding, I love to do it, instead of cleaning my house.

Anyway I just did a semi-detailed search for CURRENT information
that would compare different socialized medicine AND give some costs, comparisons,
and patient satisfaction.
French Health Care — Code Blue Now!

Degrading Healthcare - 07/22/2008 - The Journal of Life Sciences

Finally, there is an online publication called Health Care Reform Now.
They have hundreds of articles that compare the USA and other countries health care
system, they have hundreds of indepth articles.
Health Care Reform Now!: Economy vs. Health Care

Also I found an article in Forbes magazine that specifically addresses what Senator Obama is proposing.
Reading is always fundamental.

Obama Can Cure Health Care's Ills - Forbes.com

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/2/2008 8:05:18 AM >

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 7:50:27 AM

kittinSol

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"The French health system combines universal coverage with a public–private mix of hospital and ambulatory care and a higher volume of service provision than in the United States. Although the system is far from perfect, its indicators of health status and consumer satisfaction are high; its expenditures, as a share of gross domestic product, are far lower than in the United States; and patients have an extraordinary degree of choice among providers.
Lessons for the United States include the importance of government’s role in providing a statutory framework for universal health insurance; recognition that piecemeal reform can broaden a partial program (like Medicare) to cover, eventually, the entire population; and understanding that universal coverage can be achieved without excluding private insurers from the supplementary insurance market."

I add that the French healthcare system was rated number 1 in the world in 2000 by the World Health Organization. It's one of the things I miss about France.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447687

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:09:37 AM

Kirata

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For people who ask, could something like that really work here? It already does.

The following is first paragraph of the Mission Statement of the New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation. Taxes are high in New York City, but worth every penny.

"To extend equally to all New Yorkers, regardless of their ability to pay, comprehensive health services of the highest quality in an atmosphere of humane care, dignity and respect"

Just flirtin'

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< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/2/2008 9:12:22 AM >

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:11:19 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

A fellow who I chat with online lives in The Netherlands I believe - if not it is some country in Europe with a governmental health care system. He is having some surgery done in the near future. He was planning a trip to the US to visit a few of us in person but he is on a waiting list for this surgery and does not know when it will happen and cannot leave the country until it does, as I understand the situation.

That is what I am afraid of.

What is he waiting for surgery on, an ingrowing toe nail?

My ex-wife who is Dutch, two weeks ago she went to her doctor with a complaint and had an MRI within 48 hours and surgery for something turned out to be none life threatening within 10 days.

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:12:02 AM

kittinSol

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I don't see why something like the French system, which combines state and private insurance, shouldn't work: where there's a will, there's a way. But you'd have to overcome the barrier of dogmatic political belief... which is no small feat around this part of the world...

How's your sunday goin'

?

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:15:55 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I live near the border with Canada and it is not uncommon to see Ontario license plates in the parking lots of our doctor’s offices. That pretty much tells me all I need to know about socialized medicine.

Quite a few Americans come to Europe to buy health care from national health services because for expensive treatments (where the patient is still able to travel of course), treatment tends to be much cheaper in Europe even with the plane fairs thrown in.

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:20:54 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

How's your sunday goin' ?

Terrible. Ya just can't get good help these days. I have to do everything myself. Even my cat refuses to lift a paw.

[insert small violin]

K.

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:24:03 AM

MzMia

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kittn, hands down France seems to have the best health care
system of what they call "Mandatory Health Care Coverage" at this time!

Two things that jump out at me are:
1. Those that work in France contribute
21% of their income into the citizens {do you think Americans would do that?}
and
2. Doctors and nurses appear to make far less there, than in the states.
I have seen some reports that state that physicians salaries average about $100,000.
Most physicians in the USA can make a lot more than 100K.

Those are 2 issues that Americans would bicker about for 50 years.
Dr. Gupta made a 4 minute video that explains the health care system in France, he talks to a couple expecting their first baby, they discuss why they LOVE the French Health Care System.
It is called "How the French get health care".

#/video/health/2008/02/08/gupta.healthcare.in.france.cnn

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/2/2008 10:11:26 AM >

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:33:39 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Those are 2 issues that Americans would bicker about for 50 years.
This is what Dr. Gupta says on the French Health Care system.

I think this is where most Europeans find Americans irrational. The US spends more on defence that all the other 18 NATO countries together, plus Russia, plus China and it wouldn't surprise me if we could throw India in there too but they bitch about providing a modicum of health care for the poor. How many weapons are enough? Why don't rightwing taxpayers seem to mind paying for the military-industrial complex and imperial wars but consider providing the poor with healthcare as akin to handing America over to the Viet Cong.

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:52:04 AM

Hanable

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as one of the american citizens who is lacking in any form of health insurance i feel i shuld add in my 2 cents. as others have said our current system is NOT working. something needs to be done. if i get sick, even if its jsut the flu or an ear infection. im basicly screwed when it comes to getting any form of treatment. yes i have the health clinc in town but i really dont think it wouod be worth makeing an appointment, i made an appointment a few weeks ago and the earliest they could get me in was december, going in and paying 25-35 bucks for them to say... " u have the flu, take this med and stay home" hell id be better before i could get into the doc. idk what the answer is but.. something has to be done about the heathl care system of the USA...

H >:)

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 9:53:29 AM

ThatDaveGuy69

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CL: So then you are happy with the way health care is handled in the US?
May I then ask:
Do you have health insurance?

And how is it paid:
Your employer?

Out of your own pocket?

Some combination?

dreamysubmail: This happened to us in June, after we were no longer insured. The Mrs took a header down 7 steps to the recroom and bit through the space under her lower lip. Blood everywhere! A bandaid was clearly not going to handle it. So we went off to the local ER. They took her right in and began cleaning the wound while I filled out the paperwork. When I was asked for my insurance I told the woman behind the desk that we did not have any. I swear I saw her eyes roll and heard her sigh! One of the forms you sign - with or without insurance - says you will be responsible for payment. The doctor did a great job with the 22 stitches and the nurses were wonderful in keeping us both from panicing. A few weeks later we got the bill in the mail. It's about $8,000. Yet another one for the bankrupcy attorney, once I'm able to afford one.

And for all you people worried about having to wait for an MRI - I know of 2 different parking lots, each housing more than 2-dozen GE Mobile Open MRI trailers. You need to get over that one - even with a federal single-payer plan there will still be plenty of services to go around. And with a guarantee of payment, I suspect we would see an end to hospital closings and new ones built.

I really wish I were making this stuff up but I've lived this nightmare for 14 months now. You want job stress? Try living without one! See what happens to your pide when you have to ask every family member and friend you've ever known for help to keep the lights on and the children fed. Tell me you wouldn't break down as they tow your car away at 2am. And don't even get me started on unemployment insurace. I've held a job from age 14 until last August - roughly 30 years without a lapse, always paying some chunk of my wages right off the top. And for what: less than 1/3 of my previous income and then for only 13 weeks! Even the federal extension was only good for another 8 weeks. So I've pretty much had it with all you neo-con asswipes and your freakin' socialism fears. This country is FUBAR and need some serious change! Destroy the rich? Screw that - let's eat 'em for breakfast!

OK, end of rant for now.

~Dave

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 10:12:02 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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While the health care system in the Us is lacking but I believe its better then any where else in the world,I am retired miltary so I am well taken care of...My cost for Diane is over 400 dollars a month which includes dental and eye care along with a prescrpition plan..My nephew is married with 3 children his cost for a health care plan runs him a near a 900 dollars a month which is cheap in the Washington DC area,,,So it doesn't matter how much we debate socicalize mrdicine, any program will have its short falls always leaving some one holding the bag,just my two cents...bounty

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 10:22:40 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

CL: So then you are happy with the way health care is handled in the US?

No, I'm not happy. Actually, I would prefer to see health insurance eliminated altogether. It does nothing but distort healthcare costs. Take away health insurance and watch healthcare costs drop faster than oil prices these past six weeks.

BTW--I run my own business. I am my employer. Puts me on both sides of that equation.

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 10:22:53 AM

ThatDaveGuy69

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That French systems sounds pretty good but to get it I would have to move to France.
And learn to speak French.

:D

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 10:27:42 AM

ThatDaveGuy69

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CL:
Now THAT"S an interesting position - eliminate health insurance altogether... I must ponder that one...

I think it may be the 1st original thought I've heard on the subject. Fascinating...

~Dave

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RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine - 11/2/2008 10:43:47 AM

stagerle

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[/quote]

I think this is where most Europeans find Americans irrational. The US spends more on defence that all the other 18 NATO countries together, plus Russia, plus China and it wouldn't surprise me if we could throw India in there too but they bitch about providing a modicum of health care for the poor. How many weapons are enough? Why don't rightwing taxpayers seem to mind paying for the military-industrial complex and imperial wars but consider providing the poor with healthcare as akin to handing America over to the Viet Cong.
[/quote]

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