RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine

RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (Full Version)

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slaveboyforyou -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 2:48:55 PM)
quote: I'm curious Slaveboy, why would you make an exception in this instance? All welfare is underpinned by the same principle: providing people with the means to contribute to society. I posted about my reasons earlier. We pay for the uninsured already. The costs get passed down to all of us when someone can't pay their medical bill. The people who can't pay get their credit ruined, which really isn't good for our economy. The uninsured also lack preventative care. I don't have the exact numbers, but I have seen studies that estimate the costs in the billions due to expensive operations and lenghty hospital stays that could have been avoided with preventative medical care. I've also seen other studies that estimate losses in the billions due to sick workers, that could be prevented with preventative medical care. I just think it's better for society as a whole if everyone was guaranteed coverage.

Marc2b -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 3:09:42 PM)
quote: Quite a few Americans come to Europe to buy health care from national health services because for expensive treatments (where the patient is still able to travel of course), treatment tends to be much cheaper in Europe even with the plane fairs thrown in. How many is “quite a few,” ? I find it difficult to believe that with the price of air fare, accommodations and food it would still be a cheaper prospect. If you can afford a trip to Europe, you can afford health insurance. I’m not saying there are droves of Canadians swamping our Doctors but there are enough of them to make me realize that many are not getting what they want from their own country.

NorthernGent -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 3:12:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I posted about my reasons earlier. We pay for the uninsured already. The costs get passed down to all of us when someone can't pay their medical bill. The people who can't pay get their credit ruined, which really isn't good for our economy. A situation where a section of your society isn't contributing to your economy, isn't good for your economy.

Marc2b -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 3:17:12 PM)
quote: Incredible, you have worked out all about social health care, by looking at car number plates. Where did I claim to work out all about social health care? I said it told me all I need to know – namely, that it (in Canada’s case at least) doesn’t provide for everyone’s needs and wants. quote: Did it ever occur to you some of those Canadians may be working south of the border ? If that were true I would then be seeing the same cars over and over. Besides, most Canadians who work in the U.S. (at least in these here parts) take up residence here. Those border crossings can be a bitch (up to a four hour wait at peak times).

KrysFyre -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 4:40:19 PM)
Interesting subject...really shouldn't have started reading this at midnight but hey; I currently live in the UK and have had numerous surgeries both emergency and not so over the last 2-3years. In fact i'm off to see a consultant later this afternoon. Whilst the wait for non-emergency issues can be long (e.g. 7 weeks to see the consultant) i have to admit the care i have received is wonderful. Also the NHS prescription charge is regulated for most medicines which makes getting ill a hell of a lot cheaper than having to pay retail price. I appreciate the NHS system because of what it does for those without private health insurance (yes you can get it here, so those of you wanting better coverage can still have it). I'm originally from Australia and i had my fair share of illnesses there too, strangely enough if i had gone through even 2 of the 4 surgeries in Aus i would have had severe difficulties paying for the prescriptions for the painkillers and antibiotics. Also, to see my GP in aus requires at least a weeks wait and some cost (even though there is a national health type servicy thingy, Medicare, there too{it is past midnight bear wth me}) whereas here i can see my GP same day. So whilst there are issues with the NHS i hold a lot of respect for those who put the system in place and are involved in the day to day running of the service. krys

BeingChewsie -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 8:12:36 PM)
Not really. I am trying to understand..so it isn't insurance for everyone for free some people have to pay for it? I'm curious what is the yearly income cut off for getting it for free in american dollars? quote: ORIGINAL: came4U "Health care coverage (govt. sponsored) is 100% here-Canada (not including private room), takes little waiting time *depending on city population/and comparative to other countries, if you are below a certain yearly income. Obviously, if above income, you have purchased insurance." if such job pays well and exceeds the income allotted. How else is the system able to support itself without taxpayers and other's with private insurance? Low income (min wage) cannot support an entire governemnt system of health care. The higher the income, the higher the taxes, which in the end helps to pay for the lower economic bracket of citizens. High income persons cannot use provincial ID for more than that, ID and proof of citizenship to that province and as a means of tracking their own medical care history. Poor or not, we all have basic health care (and beyond-even cancer treatment is covered), the only plus is the added coverages (private room, waiting time etc) for those who pay through an insurance company. Make sense now?

LadyHibiscus -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 8:12:56 PM)
Coming late to this shindig... I have really wonderful health insurance. In order to get this insurance, some friends and I formed a "small group", ie, formed a corporation that we run some of our business through. In exchange for this, we get to pay to belong to a business group, which allows us to get a "discounted" rate and better coverage. I am a single person, with prexisting conditions and very expensive medications. The other lady is a cancer survivor, and has had severe psoriasis for twenty years. We have our BCBS, not only because of the coverage, but because no other plan would insure us! So, starting in January, my monthly premium will be $635. I will have to cough up a $1250. deductible before any of that kicks in, though. Is that nearly $9000.? It is, isn't it? Is it any wonder that I have no savings, no more retirement plan, and can't get ahead? Every day I look at that little rectangle of plastic and think, well, I could just.... But I can't. My medications alone are over $7500 annually, if I were to pay cash for them. (Yeah, meeting that deductible is a snap!) Barb's meds would run more like $25,000. Yes, her medications are the same price as a loaded midsize sedan. No, there's no dental or vision. I didn't always have this kind of insurance. Back then, when my coverage was thinner, and a doctor ordered a test, the first words out of my mouth were, "How much does it cost?" When they found out why I asked, they invariably cut a deal with me--generally I paid the amount that they would have gotten from the insurance, or even less. Yes, insurance companies are billed outlandishly high amounts, but they do not PAY OUT those amounts to the doctors and labs. It's a peculiar dance and no one knows all the steps. My parents are auto company retirees. Dad, cancer survivor, hourly. Mom, chronically ill, salaried. They are both under age 70, and faced with more limited health care coverage, higher costs, and a a morass of bureaucratic nonsense. Mom is getting denied drugs because they are "not in the formulary", yet the test that show she NEEDS those drugs is covered. People who have no training in health care, but lots of practice crunching numbers and saying NO are in charge. The fights with the insurance companies after our surgeries, illnesses, and the death of my grandmother are nightmarish to recall. Still, the notion of any kind of national health care scares me. I know---personally KNOW---several people who have died due to lack of proper care in Ontario. Yes, I feel the plight of the uninsured, but medical incompetence infuriates me more. National health care plans are NOT cheap. Canadians and Europeans pay enormous taxes in comparison to us in the USA. EVERYONE with an income is paying those taxes to fund the programs. Still, unless you're in France, what are the chances that you are getting everything you need? Shouldn't a person living in a big city like Toronto be able to get her brain tumour diagnosed BEFORE it kills her? I do think that everyone should be able to get basic preventive health care, and health education. I am willing to pay more in taxes to cover that. Sadly, I have no say in where my tax money goes, and we all know that it is going to the middle east. I think that the drug companies are draining us dry. I think that there should be a ban on commericals for drugs. Why should we citizens have cholesterol medications pushed on us? Do we not pay professionals to know what drugs are appropriate to our conditions? Viagra and Cialis ads? Don't get me started. Why can't all that marketing money go to hold the costs of medications down? Why can't more money be directed to regulating the many generic drugs that do NOT work the same as their originals? Because that isn't where the money is. Obviously, I have no solution to any of this, just another example of how hosed we are. I am not holding my breath that the new administration will do anything to help. When I start really thinking about these issues, I start to feel like a conspiracy theorist... what's the name of that commission that's supposed to run everything? (No, not the Illuminati...) Trilateral Commission, that's it!

came4U -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 10:07:23 PM)
BeingChewsy: "Ontario Health Premium As of July 1, 2004, if your taxable income is more than $20,000 and you are a resident of Ontario, at the end of each year, you will pay the Ontario Health Premium (OHP). The Ontario Health Premium is collected through the income tax system. Individuals with income of $20,000 or less are exempt. Above that amount, the premium levels rise with income. The premium is deducted from pay and pensions of those with taxable earnings or pension income of $20,000 or more a year, as part of federal and Ontario income tax." Our dollar is equal with yours give or take a few pennies right now.

came4U -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 11:56:22 PM)
oops, I forgot to add: doctor/clinic fee: 0 prescription drugs cost: $0.00 dispensing fee to pharmacy: $2.00 for low income persons, $5.00 for those with private insurance.

Shekicromaster -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/2/2008 11:56:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Let me ask this: given the realities we have here in the US, how would you change things to make sure everyone has at least some basic level of health insurance? Let's cut the crap and cut to the chase. Use me as an example. I've been unemployed for 14 months. I have a wife and 2 children. How would you change things so that my family and I are insured? Simple answer: I wouldn't. So it is better to let people stagnate and be a burden for the society for years... than have not only the insurance but even for example (Sweden again) a system of getting their (I think about 80%) income from the state for a few more months getting at the same time into programs of prequalification and shifting the work force where it is needed and productive? Spending some tax money for that of course, but instead of having a social problem people get employed again faster which means also paying the taxes and being a supportive part of the society. It seems better for both the state and the individual, can’t see what could possibly be wrong with it.

Shekicromaster -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 12:00:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Homo sapiens is an animal, and it is folly to pretend otherwise. That’s just an excuse. Animals are driven mostly by instincts, humans have a much more developed reason an will and therefore more freedom of choice. If one wants to behave just like a two legged animal of course he is free to do it, but let’s not take the entire race with us, if it was like that we would be jumping around trees and caves today, the civilization is all about controlling the animal in us.

Shekicromaster -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 12:30:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 How far from socialism are you really, given your paraphrasing of Karl Marx? ("From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." -- Critique of the Gotha Program, 1875) Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. In Socialism, ownership and control of land, capital, and the means of production and distribution are vested in the State. Objecting to the means should not commit us to objecting to the end. K. Socialism is just a theory like capitalism, in the real life when you put theory in practice pure ideology is not entirely applicable and extremes have usually proved inefficient. I can’t really understand this aversion towards socialism from some members. It must be something specific to the USA political climate or history as I cant remember seeing this type of “religious” antagonism even from the victims of communist regimes.. the hatred they feel has nothing to do with social part of the system but with the dictatorial repressive control of individual lives. So this type of feelings from people that have no experience of it has probably more to do with blind idealism than with reason and experience. Even absolute communism was not a problem for example in the kibuc system in Israel, but that is far, far more extreme than what we are talking about. Socialism as a principle has many ways of implementation and taking care of members of the society does not imply absolute control of the government but the government being a corrective factor when interests of the capital can overrun the interests of (majority of the) people, it does not have to destroy the principles of the free market for that. It is much more reasonable to be pragmatic and look for the best practical solutions than to be guided by paroles and blind idealism of any type. Socialism is the very raison d'etre of the organized society at the first place. The reason people organize themselves in various groups from families or simple tribes to states is for better security and protection, if it is not there what's the point of it at all? And without the organized society there is not even the economical elite (and I'm not against it, a stratification of the society is normal) as its position can exist only within the larger frame (someone has to buy their goods after all :D).

celticlord2112 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 12:38:23 AM)
quote: That’s just an excuse. Animals are driven mostly by instincts, humans have a much more developed reason an will and therefore more freedom of choice. Descartes used this thesis as the foundation for arguing that man was superior to other animals. Of course, that alone is inadequate to render the thesis true; small wonder, then, that the thesis is at best, suspect, and, at worse, complete balderdash. Humans have more reason than insects. It is arguable how much more reason homo sapiens has vs. dolphins and orangutans. Even certain bird species have demonstrated rudimentary linguistic capabilities (Google Alex, an African Gray parrot) and potentially some indeterminate level of abstract reasoning). Humans are animals. The most intelligent animals, in all probability, and certainly the dominant species on the planet, but animals nonetheless--with all the instinctive and other primeval baggage of the rest of the animal kingdom.

Shekicromaster -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 1:34:37 AM)
The fact that we are discussing this makes it obvious we have a possibility to choose what to believe or do, if we had none there would be no discussion or analysis, just instinctive action.

meatcleaver -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 4:42:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Quite a few Americans come to Europe to buy health care from national health services because for expensive treatments (where the patient is still able to travel of course), treatment tends to be much cheaper in Europe even with the plane fairs thrown in. How many is “quite a few,” ? I find it difficult to believe that with the price of air fare, accommodations and food it would still be a cheaper prospect. If you can afford a trip to Europe, you can afford health insurance. I’m not saying there are droves of Canadians swamping our Doctors but there are enough of them to make me realize that many are not getting what they want from their own country. I saw a documentary on German TV of an American wanting hip replacement, with surgery, flight and a breif convalecance, he estimated he saved thousands of dollars. My ex-wife's sister in law who is a orthopaedic surgeon regularly has American clients. I don't know how the math works but they pay standard hospital rates and there are no middlemen, no shareholders or bureaucratic army that need paying so I assume that is where the money is saved.

celticlord2112 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 5:48:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shekicromaster The fact that we are discussing this makes it obvious we have a possibility to choose what to believe or do, if we had none there would be no discussion or analysis, just instinctive action. Non sequitur. That humans have the capacity for reason is not in dispute; that "reason" somehow differentiates homo sapiens from the rest of the animal kingdom is where your reasoning falls apart.

MmeGigs -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 6:53:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Democracy has nothing to do with healthcare, which, btw, is not even a right, much less a basic right. It's not a basic right, it's a fundamental need. Like food and shelter. Our govt helps the poor and destitute meet these needs. It hasn't always done this, but we decided that as a civilized country we should provide a safety net for these folks, rather than see them sick and starving and dying on the streets. The Institutes of Medicine estimate that about 20,000 people die every year because they don't have health insurance. That's similar to the rates for deaths from diabetes or stroke. 75% of the uninsured are working folks. Uninsured people are sicker and die younger - it's estimated that this costs our economy between $65 billion and $130 billion a year. Estimates are that the cost to cover the uninsured would be $48 billion a year. Put that all together, we would have $17 billion and $82 billion net gain to the economy and would save about 20,000 lives a year if everyone had access to health care. The only way to get everyone access to health care is to get the govt involved. Seems to me that this is a pretty good expenditure of our collective resources.

MmeGigs -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 7:14:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b How many is “quite a few,” ? I find it difficult to believe that with the price of air fare, accommodations and food it would still be a cheaper prospect. If you can afford a trip to Europe, you can afford health insurance. Medical tourism has become a big business. It's certainly not an answer for emergency care, but for non-emergency and elective surgeries, it can be much cheaper to fly overseas than to have the procedure done here. http://medicaltourism.com/compare-cost.php

came4U -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 7:44:08 AM)
quote: Not really. I am trying to understand..so it isn't insurance for everyone for free some people have to pay for it? I'm curious what is the yearly income cut off for getting it for free in american dollars? Sorry BeingChewsy I didn't quite answer your entire question only the second half. Everyone pays into the health system via taxes, obviously the higher the income, the more is distributed into the Health Services Canada department of governement. Everyone is covered. Lower income persons get a return on their taxes via a GST (goods and services tax) every 3 months (average cheque given per-person of low income is $206.00). Higher income persons do not recieve this triennial payment (or it is much lower) We are to assume these people who do make over $20,000/yr have purchased a policy recommended by their employer at a discount (bulk) rate. If you own your own business, and make above this yearly income and have no insurance, you will be billed for extra services as mentioned above. Provincial plans cover everybody (rich and poor) "The ministry covers all insured medically necessary services provided by physicians. Physicians may bill you for uninsured services or if you miss an appointment or your health card is not valid. You may contact the ministry if you have questions about charges for uninsured services." for anything from a clinic visit to car accident and everything in the middle (the basics). Podiatrists are partially covered under OHIP. Those that can afford private insurance do so as only a guarentee of private room, nurses, aftercare services (extras like longer re-habilitation or of the like. Obviously if it is a car accident, a car insurance corporation will carry the debt of hospital bills concurring once disputes have been settled. (see: http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/pub/ohip/motorvehicle.html Cancer and other such dire treatment diseases, dental and eye care "The ministry pays for some dental surgery, when it is done in hospital. You must pay the cost of regular dental services in a dentist's office." note: if lower income person is on spcial assistance, dental care for children is covered for basic checkups "Dental services OHIP covers only a few specific dental services when performed in a hospital. These include: the cost of extracting a tooth if it is medically necessary to perform the procedure in a hospital and prior approval is obtained from OHIP; the cost of procedures related to cleft lip repair, neurological procedures, and tumors; osteotomy surgery and one post-operative (office) visit. If the dentist's charges for removing a tooth is covered by OHIP, general Anaesthesia will also be covered. Coverage for children (JK to Grade 8) and seniors not covered by group insurance or eligible for dental care under provincial social assistance programs. Individual or parent must sign a declaration stating that the treatment represents a financial hardship. Emergency treatment provided for those receiving Mother's Allowance. Basic treatment provided for children. Basic care provided for mentally and physically handicapped individuals between 18 and 65, receiving family benefits, and not covered by a group insurance plan." "An eye examination is covered by OHIP once a year for persons under 20 and those 65 and over. OHIP also covers a major eye exam once every 12 months for persons aged 20 - 64 who have medical conditions requiring regular eye examinations" http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/pub/ohip/services.html Depending on the policy they have purchased usually 20-80% is covered, sometimes as much as 100%. These plans take further burden off of the system. It all turns out equal in the end of being the 'social' thing to do for your fellow man. Hope that explains it. *The identification is valid only for those who are born or naturalized citizens or legal registered residents (live in the province at least 150ish days out of any given year). whew.

celticlord2112 -> RE: 5 Myths of Socialized Medicine (11/3/2008 8:08:05 AM)
quote: It's not a basic right, it's a fundamental need. Like food and shelter. This is true. However, needs are never guaranteed to be met--the truth of which homeless people are grim testimony.

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