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Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 4:22:52 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		So what Obama is promising has been likened to marxism, socialism and so many other things that seem to put the willies up the  opposition, but what he is advocating, in reality is it all that bad ?

Maybe it is that America has to venture into a more socialist idea for it to arrive at some level of balance, a balance which can be seen as a change. Perhaps socialism or something akin to it is actually good for America, it might very well lead onto America becoming a great nation again where every American  feels it is good to be American, i.e. they are happy with their nation and most of which it does.

Don't let failed socialist regimes of other countries be a guideline for what might happen.


(Interestingly, it has just been suggested on UK tv that McCain represents an old failed America and Obama a new America, is this what everyone appears scared of, the change into the unknown, if that is the case you will never know unless you take the step)


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/2/2008 4:29:02 AM >

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 5:15:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Obama is a centrist. A European wouldn't recognize Obama's 'socialism", they would call it conservatism. I guess that is how far right the US is at the moment.

Accusing him of being a socialist is typical rightwing Strausian boogeyman tactics.

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 5:20:21 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		Ridiculous.  After the massive Bush deficit, something must be done.  Bush's insistence on cutting taxes for some but not using countervailing tax increases, helped lead to the current deficit.  In effect, it cuts taxes for some and raises them at a later time for others.

Obama's plan is to cut for some and raise for others RIGHT NOW.  Pay as you go.

And as far as the "socialist" moniker goes - that's when the government owns the means of producing wealth.  Like what Bush and Paulson are currently implementing, with the blessings of Congress including McCain and Obama.


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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 5:37:14 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Ridiculous.  After the massive Bush deficit, something must be done.  Bush's insistence on cutting taxes for some but not using countervailing tax increases, helped lead to the current deficit.  In effect, it cuts taxes for some and raises them at a later time for others.

Obama's plan is to cut for some and raise for others RIGHT NOW.  Pay as you go.

And as far as the "socialist" moniker goes - that's when the government owns the means of producing wealth.  Like what Bush and Paulson are currently implementing, with the blessings of Congress including McCain and Obama.


Yes, socialism is a term used as a ruse to try to scandalize Obama as some sort of communist or nazi among others without actually saying so.

You are close, socialism is the government ownership of the means of production. The wealth produced as a matter of profit is determined still...by the marketplace.

The allocation of that wealth however much it is...would be distributed to all of public owning shares rather than say the capitalist ownership where 10% of the people currently own 85% of the stocks and wealth in general.

Thus 10% of the people otherwise known as the investor class currently enjoys now almost all of the production of wealth.

And yes, what we are going through kinkroids is a $trillion rip-off, a swindle forced upon us by our plutocracy. This is the culmination of propaganda that produced the most prolific demonstration of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

BTW, for whoever accepts my definition of socialism and trust me...millions do, then a pure, true socialistic country in an industrialized economy (from 1700) ...has never been tried or even attempted in all of history.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 11/2/2008 5:43:17 AM >

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 5:41:39 AM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Nationalizing half the banks (under Bush).

That, is socialism.

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 5:45:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


And yes, what we are going through kinkroids is a $trillion rip-off, a swindle forced upon us by our plutocracy. This is the culmination of propaganda that produced the most prolific demonstration of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.


So true and ironies of ironies, this is not the first time socialist policies have had to be employed to save capitalism.

No doubt once socialist policies have saved capitalism, government will revert back to capitalism. Give wildly excessive incentives to the rich to be corrupt and whip the poor to make them work to keep the rich...well...rich.

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 5:48:14 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

You are close, socialism is the government ownership of the means of production.



Yeah, I'm aware that I tweaked what Marx said.  He was using a model based on production, largely based on manual labor.  Today, we have entities that Marx never dreamed of, such as US-based companies that offshore production to Asian companies, and financial firms that produce no physical products but manage investments.

I took the liberty of updating what Marx said to reflect how I think he would have intended it in the current situation.


_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 5:54:48 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Nationalizing half the banks (under Bush).

That, is socialism.

Only if the govt. buys up a majority of the shares, installs or sanctions management and retains corresponding profit to the benefit of all shareholders via dividends...would it be socialism.

The socialism our capitalists love is the kind in the form of a govt. corp. designed to either guarantee a buyer, financial insurance or a direct handout as they enjoy today. Public shares are nice (Fannie & Freddie) so we further obscure its true purpose and if it comes...party hardy, get your millions in bonuses and tock options and get out even if you end up losing money on behalf of those shareholders. Most got out of the big players got out months befroe the colapse. With the capitalist having enough pull in govt., have used it brilliantly. They are now partying on the first $700 billion installment.

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:01:38 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The gov. bought an interest and became part owners.

You`re splitting hairs.

Added:

And it wasn`t like we had any choice.

It all happened with a gun to our heads.

But there you have it.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 11/2/2008 6:03:51 AM >

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:04:18 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

So what Obama is promising has been likened to marxism, socialism and so many other things that seem to put the willies up the  opposition, but what he is advocating, in reality is it all that bad ?

Maybe it is that America has to venture into a more socialist idea for it to arrive at some level of balance, a balance which can be seen as a change. Perhaps socialism or something akin to it is actually good for America, it might very well lead onto America becoming a great nation again where every American  feels it is good to be American, i.e. they are happy with their nation and most of which it does.

Don't let failed socialist regimes of other countries be a guideline for what might happen.


(Interestingly, it has just been suggested on UK tv that McCain represents an old failed America and Obama a new America, is this what everyone appears scared of, the change into the unknown, if that is the case you will never know unless you take the step)



America is not Europe!  The USA was founded, explored, conquered, and built by proud people with "can do" pioneer spirit who left their homes, family and friends for "opportunity"..not a hand-out!  People who came from all over the planet, mostly from Europe until the recent past, but all not satisfied with the lack of opportunity, conflict, bigotry, or the "caste" system of the continent.  Socialism caught on in Europe because it was a way to level the playing field, in my opinion, and really is big central government control over the lives of the people, not unlike the past rule of Kings and Queens.  That's what Americans revolted against over two-hundred years ago.
We don't have that issue in the States...you can start a businesss in a garage and go on to be the second wealthiest person in the country....you can start a small record company and become a billionaire producer of R&R....you can work hard as a plumber and dream about someday owning your own business and earning a six figure income....or, you can just coast through life and wait for the government cheese. 
Socialism is not something most Americans dream about...but it issomething that frightens us..Big Government, centralized control over our lives, dictating what is best for us based on the views of a politician is just not in our genes as Americans. 

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:18:18 AM   
Owner59


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When public dollars are used to guarantee private capital (the 700 billion dollar bail out,remember?),that`s socialism of the worst kind.

A nasty little dose of redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich.Job well done,neo-conservatives.



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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:26:15 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


When public dollars are used to guarantee private capital (the 700 billion dollar bail out,remember?),that`s socialism of the worst kind.

A nasty little dose of redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich.Job well done,neo-conservatives.




I'm scratching my head here trying to really understand what you just said.  Redistribution of wealth from poor to rich????  Could you explain your thesis on how this happens? ...If your poor you don't have wealth, you don't have  anything to "redistribute". Of course, your idea of being poor might be different than mine.
If you are familiar with the $700 billion program, by the way, it was pushed by Bush AND Pelosi and Reid, two people that would get a case of hiccups if ever accused of being neo-conservatives.  Can we say..."it was a bipartisan program to save the financial system from collapse"...No one liked the idea..but it was something that had to be done, and is being repeated all over the world by countries from Japan to Iceland, to Switzerland.


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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:34:24 AM   
Battlehammer


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Status: offline 		Obama is a Socialist Marxist. No matter how you try to hide it, he also has ties to terrorists. Socialism was tried when this country was first formed, it failed.  How ignorant can you be not to see that capitalism works and works great if government is kept out of it. The ecconomy has fallen to due to crooked and corrupt lenders and their stupid practices.  They should of all been allowed to fail and jailed.  If you start a business and make poor monetary decisions do you think the government willl or should bail you out? No it should not.  Democrats running congress now have decided wrongly to bail those crooks that support them out and they should be thrown out. Those who vote for Obama and his Socialistic and Marxist ideals are not only ignorant but foolish as well!

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:41:55 AM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Did you know that McCain is also tied to Aires?

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:56:54 AM   
RacerJim


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Status: offline 		Call it foretelling or happenschance but yesterday during a McCain-Palin sign waving rally on the main street in my city, Rockville Md, a late 30's looking male passerby on foot gave us a thumbs up, stopped to talk with us, and wound up joining us in waving McCain-Palin signs at passing motorists.  Here are just a couple non-verbatim quotes:

"How can so many people be so ignorant not to see or so stupid not to care that Obama is a socialist?"
"Obama wants to take guns away from the people, that alone should tell the people what he's all about."
"Obama is a LIAR, nothing but PROPAGANDA."
"Lie to the people often enough and the people will eventually believe it."
"How can so many people not care about his long-time relationships with Reverend Wright and William Ayers?"

He should know.  He and his family immigrated to America in 1986...from Russia.

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 6:59:04 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Battlehammer
Obama is a Socialist Marxist.




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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 7:06:23 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

Call it foretelling or happenschance but yesterday during a McCain-Palin sign waving rally on the main street in my city, Rockville Md, a late 30's looking male passerby on foot gave us a thumbs up, stopped to talk with us, and wound up joining us in waving McCain-Palin signs at passing motorists.  Here are just a couple non-verbatim quotes:

"How can so many people be so ignorant not to see or so stupid not to care that Obama is a socialist?"
"Obama wants to take guns away from the people, that alone should tell the people what he's all about."
"Obama is a LIAR, nothing but PROPAGANDA."
"Lie to the people often enough and the people will eventually believe it."
"How can so many people not care about his long-time relationships with Reverend Wright and William Ayers?"

He should know.  He and his family immigrated to America in 1986...from Russia.


What, America is founded on immigrants, at one time or other people from all over the world have emmigrated to America, people of all nationalities, ethnicities, religions and politics, the land of the free ?

Does it really matter where an American citizen or their family comes from, are there preferred countries of origin and not so preferred countries ?

I thought the idea was come to America, tow the line and you can become an American citizen.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 7:32:22 AM   
ncprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Battlehammer

Obama is a Socialist Marxist. No matter how you try to hide it, he also has ties to terrorists. Socialism was tried when this country was first formed, it failed.  How ignorant can you be not to see that capitalism works and works great if government is kept out of it. The ecconomy has fallen to due to crooked and corrupt lenders and their stupid practices.  They should of all been allowed to fail and jailed.  If you start a business and make poor monetary decisions do you think the government willl or should bail you out? No it should not.  Democrats running congress now have decided wrongly to bail those crooks that support them out and they should be thrown out. Those who vote for Obama and his Socialistic and Marxist ideals are not only ignorant but foolish as well!


If I'm not mistaken, Bush was the one pushing hardest for the bailout. Either way, McCain and Obama both voted for it, so if you wish to speak ill of Obama for voting for it, in all fairness, you should speak ill of McCain for the same thing. But, then again, I've noticed if Obama has an idea it's very BBBAAADDD....give it a couple of days, switch a couple of words around and McCain says it and it's soooooooo wonderful.

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 7:43:09 AM   
DMFParadox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Battlehammer

How ignorant can you be not to see that capitalism works and works great if government is kept out of it. The ecconomy has fallen to due to crooked and corrupt lenders and their stupid practices.  They should of all been allowed to fail and jailed. 


Just as the lawmakers who created the regulations that made it illegal for banks to reject certain high-risk loan applicants, in laws such as the Fair Housing Act updates under the Clinton administration, should be jailed.

Hell, everyone should be jailed. Let's lock the entire world up, build a door on a beach Douglas Adams style that has a 'Welcome to the Earth Penitentiary' sign over it.

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RE: Socialist America ? - 11/2/2008 7:53:46 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		America will never be a socialist state Aneirin they put a price on everything even healthcare. It's a cruel harsh land where the only people that hold power are those that have money; inherited or otherwise. If people wanted socialism they had plenty of opportunities to embrace it in the past when times were far worse. They didn't so this idea that Obama is a socialist Marxist type is ridiculous because Obama is an educated man and will not be foolish enough to run on a platform that won't get him elected. Even those idiots that think he is hiding his true intentions should ask themselves how long he would survive after the election if he tried this socialist approach he supposedly has?
 
The truth of the matter and utter sadness of it all is that one side is looking to the future and the other still thinks he is a POW resisting communist ideas. Seriously I think McCain has some deep seated psychological problems due to his experience at the hands of communists where he now suspects all people that oppose his ideas are communists too.
 
I think they call this displacement.

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