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RE: Who has it really? - 11/5/2008 7:54:44 PM

NuevaVida

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I would state that the power to quit / walk away does not always exist. It may at some time, until, in some cases, it no longer does. It would be a mistake to think that because some or even most have that power, that everyone does.

It is a power I hope to never lose again.

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Post #: 41

RE: Who has it really? - 11/5/2008 7:59:39 PM

MzMia

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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I have not read all the replies but I will say this.
IMHO in most situations in life, the person
that is CAPABLE of ending the relationship and
walking away FIRST, if they are unhappy, not satisfied,
{you insert the reason here}, is the person with the upper hand.

IF this person happens to be the submissive, who really has the power?

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/5/2008 8:00:54 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 4:35:30 AM

Rover

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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Great question, miss. And one that I believe folks are too prone to reply with absolutes as if one partner or the other holds "all" the power.

Personally, I believe that each of us has our own personal power. Anyone without personal power probably is incapable of offering consent, and would preclude any "power exchange" (ie: they have no power to exchange... and please, do not confuse "power exchange" with exchanging power with one another... a submissive/slave exchanges the authority to use their power in exchange for acceptance of control). In a power exchange relationship, a submissive/slave authorizes a Dominant to utilize all the power in a relationship (or at least as much as has been agreed to)... both the submissive/slave's and the personal power of the Dominant as well.

This power transfer is consensual, however. And at any time a submissive/slave may revoke their consent, thereby rescinding the authority of a Dominant and reclaiming their own power.

So who has the power? Both partners have their own power. A Dominant is not "powerless" without a submissive/slave, for instance. They have the power of self-determination.

But the more interesting question is who has the authority to exericise that power (control) at any given time.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/6/2008 4:36:37 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 6:37:19 AM

CruelDesires

Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

generally the person who cares the least about the relationship has the most power.

I was thinking the exact same thing, Omega.

I also find it sort of sad and ironic that some people talk about "my way or the highway" regarding power, but when they whine about why their girl won't do what they want her to, and you ask them what happened to "my way or the highway", they say, "I can't do that because of (whatever)." That certainly seems like their power is but an illusion, and a feeble one at that.

Cali

Feeble and delusional and weak. *shrugs*

C-D

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Post #: 44

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 7:08:11 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Are you implying i am not secure with my orientation and my own relationships? Because after all as far as you are concerned i wouldn't have asked this question if i was secure in myself.

Nope, actually on the contrary, I was trying to reference the general debate on this topic and wasn't meant to imply anything personally to you.

quote:

Tha answer is obvious huh?
So who here has it right and who has it wrong?
I see a variance of answers and well since the answer is 'obvious' to you i hope you will care to share it.

I just see mostly semantical debate.

As I already said, it's the person who is labeled dominant who has the authority/control/power/whatever and calls the shots and the submissive who doesn't.

Apparently some people in the world need to distort this with philosophical-pseudo-paradox talk and I don't quite get it. Won't it make more sense to call the dominant's submissive and the submissive's dominants then if that's true?

My apologies if I am coming off grumpy, but this, along with definitions debates, has left a generally bad taste in my mouth. My discernment is directed toward the topic itself and not at you for starting the topic.

Okies, i get ya

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Post #: 45

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 8:37:18 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
That certainly seems like their power is but an illusion, and a feeble one at that.

Feeble and delusional and weak. *shrugs*

Kind of funny that you chose the word "delusional", as I just wrote a journal entry the other day about delusions. You're right though, it's something false that they believe is true despite evidence to the contrary.

Cali

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Post #: 46

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 9:51:16 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IAMChristine

whoever has veto power is in control. a hard lesson that i'm learning.

Control is an illusion.

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Post #: 47

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 11:14:41 AM

MistressSassy66

Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

'After all, we have the power. Never mind the philosophical arguments that the slaves are the power holders here. The slave has one power only - to quit. We have everything else, including the threat of dismissal.'

From tales of the marketplace, the academy.

So who do you think really has the power?

In the Universe of Mistress Sassy,I believe that both P/parties has the power.
IMO relationships should have some equal powers between ALL parties.
I believe that UM's should have power to make decisions for themselves.
I also believe that a slave/submissive should have the power to say
'that hurts me in way that doesnt make me feel good' and their
Owner has the power to make sure they are communicating
with Their sl/sub.The Dom/me should honor what the sl/sub
finds to be too much,it is Our responstibility to care for Our
property.
When people feel they have no control/power it can damge their self-esteem.
Make them feel unworthy and useless.

IMHO using ultimatums,example: you change 'x' behavior or your out of here.
do not always work out as planned.Saying something like I'm glad
your Mine but this 'x' behavoir is really bugging Me,find out what the
root of the problem is and take it from there.

If the situation that has come to the point of the sl/s threatens to leave here,I
will gladly open the door for them.I dont play into threats of the fact they can just up and leave.

_____________________________

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http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 48

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 12:57:44 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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~fast reply~

All individuals involved have power -- it isn't a matter of who -has- the power, so much as who has the right (authority) to -direct- the existing power of the relationship and determine that relationship's goals, means, and ends. In a power-exchange, the power is in the hands of the d-type by consensus. As long as everyone agrees, and as long as the d-type shows both the capacity and creativity to manage that power, it's likely to continue. The d-type also has the ability to delegate, essentially returning aspects of control of that power back to the s-type(s) involved.

The truth is that -either- party has the right to walk away... it's what happens when people choose to -stay- that is the real measure of who holds the higher authority gradient over the relationship's power.

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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Post #: 49

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 1:17:49 PM

SimplyMichael

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I would think that whomever makes their partner happiest has a great deal of power, even if they are not the one to walk away.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 50

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 1:45:55 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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I've referred to it before as the equality to be found within the inequality and vice-versa. While I hold the power day to day in making decisions, to dismiss, steering the relationship and in other ways, the submissive always holds the power to quit submitting until things are hashed out. She has the power to walk away. She has the power to stop almost any action that is taking place by use of a safeword or by withdrawal/cessation of her submission...whether for a short length of time or permanently. I have the power to stop almost any action simply by refusing to dominate.

How well that works in theory without ever having to be tested is...to use the old cliche...a matter of communication and a meshing of the minds.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 51

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 2:12:11 PM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I would think that whomever makes their partner happiest has a great deal of power, even if they are not the one to walk away.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, Michael.

Mutual satisfaction and bringing happiness into the household does have a place, though, IMO, it is impossible to -make- another person happy... and it is not anyone's responsibility to attempt to control another person's happiness, which makes that whole "making someone happy" sort of a tenuous handle on which to hang the definition of one's dynamic. Also, it may be true that there is power in happiness -- but life isn't happy every day, and if people can't cope with dealing with what needs to be done when things -aren't- happy, that relationship isn't going to last very long. Frankly, if bringing happiness is the judge of who has the power, then the balance is already skewed, because in most cases, by accepting the role as the guiding force of the relationship, the d-type will be the one who shoulders the responsibility of going in those directions, and assuring that those tasks which are -not- happy get done, thereby setting hirself up as the one who doesn't 'bring the happy'.

It still boils down to what happens when the relationship is active... for as long as that relationship is in place, regardless of which party has more power to terminate an activity or the relationship as a whole, it is the active principle, and the time when the relationship is being -expressed- that determine the tilt of the power gradient.

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 52

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 4:21:41 PM

LydiaSciKitten

Posts: 43
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Luxembourg, now in UK
Status: offline

The power? There is no such thing as 'the' power. There isn't one kind of power, or only one 'entity' of power within a relationship. Relationships have many areas in wich power can be exerced and displayed, accepted or used. There is physical force, there is choice of decision-making, there is emotional influence, there is codependency and need, there is property, there is leadership. And not all of them are one's or the other's, the slave's or the Master's. Traditionally, the Master holds all power, but never can a relationship be absolutely imbalanced, to such an extreme degree. Even if both agree and want all power to be held by one member of the relationship, it is simply impossible, because a relationship implies the desire to be together, and such a desire implies that both parties will be effected if not hurt by the loss of the other.
Nevertheless, there seems to be a misconception about M/s relationships. Slaves place the limits, but that is not equal to having power over the relationship. What happens is, the slave decides initially what the relationship IS, and then, between that chosen frame, surrenders power to the Master. So no, the slaves are not the secret pirate monkey ninja powerholders. On the other hand, most slaves have achieved earning their Master's
affection (if it's a real, long-term relationship), and when there is affection, there is always mutual emotional influence.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 53

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 6:22:53 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LydiaSciKitten

What happens is, the slave decides initially what the relationship IS, and then, between that chosen frame, surrenders power to the Master.

Actually, I don't believe this happens very often. Personally, I've never allowed anyone else to define my relationship dynamic in such a way (and would never consider doing so). A submissive/slave may explain what she is capable/willing to offer, and I can decide for myself whether that's enough or not. And in turn, I can do the same. But in the end, neither of us will define what the relationship *is* to the other, because neither of us has the capacity to force the other to accept.

In the end it will be mutually agreeable, or not.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to LydiaSciKitten)

Post #: 54

RE: Who has it really? - 11/6/2008 6:24:15 PM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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I agree with Michael in a way.

At least in the way I interpretted his post. I'm sure he'll correct me if I've surmised/guessed/supposed incorrectly.

I know that M makes me *happier* than I make him.

I'd pare it down to the fact that I have a far greater bank of pleasure from having him in my life than he has by having ME in his.

Perhaps that's a cold and analytical way of looking at a relationship but all the same, it's a truthful one.

If 'happiness' is viewed as a moment by moment feeling , then M doesn't 'bring the happy' and doesn't try to and I don't expect him to.

I expect him to control and run my life in the way that benefits me the most. That quite often makes me 'UNhappy'; in fact, it can piss me off hugely.

Ultimately, there IS a pay-off or I would have to question why I was following him. I'm not following him out of some deep sense of slaviness, a desire to serve or some submissive need.

Power isn't something we think about, nor are many of the issues we see debated here. It's interesting to try to articulate things that are just * the way it is*, sometimes.

AGIRL

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 55

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