RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:29:10 AM)

quote:

Nice dig but completely untrue.
 
I am just scared by the 'all hail the messiah' attitude that seems in abundance.


"Nice dig" but also untrue.

It's three days after the election. People are excited.




UncleNasty -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:32:17 AM)

It is interesting that some commenting here are indicating "inclusion," or any derivative thereof, is really not "real."

We need look no further than this board as there is a thread posted yesterday with that term, or phrase, in the title. Some of those in denial of "inclusion" posted on that thread.

Uncle Nasty




Owner59 -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:34:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Question Merc,maybe you can answer it,being an outsider and all(or pretending to be).

Why is every right-wing talk-show host (simultaneously)talking about/fearing the"Fairness Doctrine"?

It`s like a big monster`s coming to get them or something.

What are they so afraid of?

Owner, I don't know if I'm an "outsider" - I AM a pragmatist.

Regarding the talking heads currently dominating talk radio; can't speak for them. My position is consistent. Anytime any freedom is reduced or a democratic process overturned by an activist court I'm against it. That goes to smoking, which I don't do; to talk radio which I sometimes listen.

My question to you, is why do you support censorship, or at minimum government dictated programing. Does your TV and/or radio not have a dial? Do you, or in many cases did you, not support the sponsors of 'Radio America' or whatever it short lived national left talk radio was called?

There is a "monster". It's accepting a reduction of liberty and freedom even when you aren't in the included group the action is directed. I can't rationalize that. For the very same reason I wish that Prop 8 failed - I'll support and stand behind the result. My vote for President went to someone who got less than 1% of the vote. I'll never refer to him as anything other than MY President and hope, against my belief, that he does accomplish positive results for the county. Yet - that position is perceived as bitter? AMAZING!

I couldn't be more pleased to be EX-cluded from those that feel that way.

PS - Yes Owner, I did vote for Bush twice. Both times faced with the same choices I'd do it again. Why is that an issue now regarding this subject? Is everyone who voted for Bush excluded from the inclusionist group?

quote:

Merc, the 'points' you are trying to address are non-existent,
They are kittin? Lieberman not being attacked? Government dictating the radio waves is not being talked about by the victors? Being delusional part of being 'included'?


My question to you, is why do you support censorship, or at minimum government dictated programing.



Those are two completely different things.And neither of them apply here.

At all.

There`s no government mandated info or content or programing.Just a chance to hear the other side.That`s all it ever was.

The way in which conservatives are ranting over this,you`d think they got a death
sentence.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The air waves are public property,like a national forest or park/museum.

No one is to be excluded.It`s owned by the common.

Same goes in the world of ideas and their dissemination, on public air-waves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question to you,why do you think allowing alternate views is a disadvantage to you?

Why so put upon?

There will be times no doubt,when you or other conservatives will be benefiting from this.

Why are you afraid of ideas? That`s all we`re talking about here.

Note,private broadcast outfits/pay television stations like HBO,SHO,pay per-view,etc aren`t under this rule.It`s for public airwaves only.




MasterVirago -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:35:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Since Tuesday the warm fuzzy feeling about PE Obama's election has generated a bunch of nonsense about the time being right for all of us to come together.


Funnily enough i was watching 'loose women' in the early hours of this morning, (a female based chat show) and i saw this opinion repeatedly. How the world is about to come together and be a totally different place. I call bull shit on this.
 
quote:

Now, you know how it must have felt for all the people who didn't vote for Bush and who had to suffer with a clown for head of state for two terms.

Enjoy the ride: at least this time, you have someone worthy of respect as your Lord and Master [8D].


Now now i'd be careful about making this kind of claim. Chances are in my opinion that Obama will probably turn out to be just as dissappointing as any other president / prime minister has been.



The reality that so many people WANT this administration to fail is the greatest reason why it will not. It fuels those of us that want to see a united America to work that much harder.

Reasons why an Obama Administration will succeed:
He has a better chance at negotiating with Middle Eastern countries (Hate to say it, but they trust white men less than black men).
Millions more citizens are now involved in the political process and ARE WATCHING! (No administration was ever under as much scrutiny by it's people as this one will be).
Seriously, how much worse can things get. It's sink or swim at this point.
People will pull together for fear of the looming threat of an actual depression.
The majority of Americans want to live simply in peace and be allowed to prosper.

I've already begun to see changes in people, in my office building, friends, family members. There is a sense of renewal, hope, like "Hey, I think we're going to be okay." Even those that I know voted for McCain and others.

I hate to pull out an Obama tag line here, but it really is up to us.




missturbation -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:35:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Nice dig but completely untrue.

I am just scared by the 'all hail the messiah' attitude that seems in abundance.


"Nice dig" but also untrue.

It's three days after the election. People are excited.


There was no dig in my reply.
 
Even some of us Brits are showing this attitude. It's worrying.




missturbation -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:36:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterVirago

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Since Tuesday the warm fuzzy feeling about PE Obama's election has generated a bunch of nonsense about the time being right for all of us to come together.


Funnily enough i was watching 'loose women' in the early hours of this morning, (a female based chat show) and i saw this opinion repeatedly. How the world is about to come together and be a totally different place. I call bull shit on this.
 
quote:

Now, you know how it must have felt for all the people who didn't vote for Bush and who had to suffer with a clown for head of state for two terms.

Enjoy the ride: at least this time, you have someone worthy of respect as your Lord and Master [8D].


Now now i'd be careful about making this kind of claim. Chances are in my opinion that Obama will probably turn out to be just as dissappointing as any other president / prime minister has been.



The reality that so many people WANT this administration to fail is the greatest reason why it will not. It fuels those of us that want to see a united America to work that much harder.

Reasons why an Obama Administration will succeed:
He has a better chance at negotiating with Middle Eastern countries (Hate to say it, but they trust white men less than black men).
Millions more citizens are now involved in the political process and ARE WATCHING! (No administration was ever under as much scrutiny by it's people as this one will be).
Seriously, how much worse can things get. It's sink or swim at this point.
People will pull together for fear of the looming threat of an actual depression.
The majority of Americans want to live simply in peace and be allowed to prosper.

I've already begun to see changes in people, in my office building, friends, family members. There is a sense of renewal, hope, like "Hey, I think we're going to be okay." Even those that I know voted for McCain and others.

I hate to pull out an Obama tag line here, but it really is up to us.



I honestly hope you are right.




MasterVirago -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:41:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Nice dig but completely untrue.

I am just scared by the 'all hail the messiah' attitude that seems in abundance.


"Nice dig" but also untrue.

It's three days after the election. People are excited.


I'm getting a little sick of that one too. Only anit-Obama people have used the term Messiah. And it's gets old hearing the same conservative rhetoric that turned me and many other ind off this year.

You'd think, with the number of congressional and local seats they lost this year, they would recognize the negative impact of mud slinging.
Speaking of which, I'm glad my donation helped Kay Hagan upseat Elizabeth Dole. Her "anti-God" commercial disgusted me!!!




Owner59 -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:41:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Chances are in my opinion that Obama will probably turn out to be just as dissappointing as any other president / prime minister has been.



None of us can predict the future, so I find it surprising how easily some people are ready to jump on the idea that Obama will disappoint. I say: "Wait and see."


It`s almost as if some wish to be disappointed and hope things go bad(meaning things going bad for the US),kittin.

The guys not even sworn in yet and the freudenschade wishes on Obama and the nation are already flowing.

Sad.


Nice dig but completely untrue.
 
I am just scared by the 'all hail the messiah' attitude that seems in abundance.



Could you give us some examples of this over the top behavior you`re talking about?

I`m starting to think you`re not really serious and just pulling our collective leg.[8D]




rulemylife -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:44:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

And here is the exact and perfect example of the 'nouveau' inclusionists. Not one word addressing any of the issues or even a contrary position regarding them - Instead, a "you are bitter" reference! Not even a cursory "not me" or "that was the old way, but this will be different". Instead, a principled acceptance; how cute and predictable!




So many issues, so little time.

I have the same problem at the Baskin-Robbins.  I mean who the hell really needs 31 different flavors?

Ok, we have prop 8, Joe Lieberman, the Fairness Doctrine, UT football, Obama, left-wing hypocrisy, hate crime legislation, inclusionism, political correctness, and judicial activism.  I'm sure there are a few more hiding in there that I missed.

Too many choices for me, I'm going to try my luck at the ice cream store.



 







Lordandmaster -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:45:46 AM)

Merc,

"Inclusionism" means including the PEOPLE, not crony political appointees and other unelected power-brokers.  Those are the assholes we just voted out.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

'Inclusionism' is the new buzzword for 'politically correct' and just as meaningless and just as hypocritical coming from the majority. Their ability to rationalize their hypocrisy fully considered. 




missturbation -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:50:02 AM)

Ok lol.
Truthfully i'm not into politics. Having said that i stayed up and wantched the election, bare in mind it was on at an ungodly hour over here. I truely wanted Obama to win.
He won and i was really pleased, of both the candidates he was the one i trusted and belive will be as true to his word as possible. Having said that i do not belive that he will make good on all of his promises, no politician, prime minister, president ever does.
On the messiah thing, well one of the loose women on the talk show was all 'oh obama will change the world. He will sort out the conflicts in Africa because Africa will listen to a black president. The world is going to be a better place, Obama will have a big effect on Britian'. She may well be right and her absolute confidence that she believed all these things was very addictive.
I however am a little more cynical. The fact we have a black president is not going to change the world. The only way we will change the world is by working together and making good on the things we set out to do. I'm not confident that will happen.
We all know that prospective presidents, prime ministers lie about policy to get votes. I can only hope that Obama makes good on all his policies etc. I will certainly eat my words and make a public apology for doubting him if he does.




MasterVirago -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:50:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I honestly hope you are right.

I hope so too, or I'm moving to Canada, or maybe Panama. It's looks lovely there.





LadyEllen -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:50:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Ellen,

It's political bullshit on this side of the pond. Legit broadcasts for years have been required to provide "equal time" for opposing political parties, but now (despite their cries) much of the media is in right wing hands, they suddenly find this idea anathema.

And right now they've got nothing of substance to bitch about, so they're blowing this up our skirts.

Short version.


Thanks - I did realise that, but I feel my question cuts to the root of what this is actually about - that certain quarters feels its appropriate to voice opinions which originate from their membership of some "ideal" group and which support the exclusion of others who vary from that "ideal".

And now theyre pissy because its being looked at as to whether their right to free expression includes a right to prompt, encourage and support the exclusion of some because of their variance from the "ideal" - not because of any disagreement about economic, fiscal or foreign policy and such, not because of any misdeeds on the part of those who vary, but because very simply they look different, think different and act different.

That the grounds for all this are spurious at best, wicked at worst is fully realised by those proposing and promoting it and they know equally that any debate on the subject matter will result in their defeat on the evidence and on the basis of civilised and considered reason, so debate is to be avoided at all costs.

The saddest part perhaps is that so many refuse to think at all, not that they refuse to consider progressive rather than traditional viewpoints, as evidenced by the popularity of programmes promoting what is a simplistic and comforting worldview for those who prefer to believe in the notional "ideal" at the expense of reality.

E




missturbation -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:51:23 AM)

quote:

I'm getting a little sick of that one too. Only anit-Obama people have used the term Messiah.


I would have voted for Obama so that's that claim out of the window.




hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:52:00 AM)

It's not that some of us want PE Obama to fail.  We don't.  His failure would be no better for us than it would for those who earnestly believe he will suceed no matter what, or for himself.  (If he fails, he pretty much guarentees that he won't get reelected, after all.)
 
It's that  many of us are a touch more grounded in Practicality and Reality than Hope.  Yes, hope is usually a good thing.  But even a nominally good thing taken to far becomes a libability rather than an asset. 

Reality says that we've heard all the promises before from other candidates, and had our hopes dashed time and time again.  What does that equate to?  Same shit, different day.
 
Reality says that Hoping this time will be different isn't exactly Practical.  While it's nice, and it certainly feeds that whole warm fuzzy thing that people seem to like, it Achieves nothing other than that warm fuzzy - and possibly a tendency to look at things through rose colored glasses while playing ostrich.
 
Practicality says that a politician is a politician is a politician, and none of them are to be Trusted regardless of what promises they make, which party they run under, or how magnetic (perhaps Especially due to how magnetic) their personality is.

 
Practicality says to pray for the best (if you're the praying type) and plan for the worst - either way, your bases are covered, and you don't get lost by getting caught up in over enthusiasm before he's had a chance to prove himself one way or the other.




colouredin -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:54:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The saddest part perhaps is that so many refuse to think at all, not that they refuse to consider progressive rather than traditional viewpoints, as evidenced by the popularity of programmes promoting what is a simplistic and comforting worldview for those who prefer to believe in the notional "ideal" at the expense of reality.

E


This is something that breaks my heart all the time, im really idealistic and watching people think things without any real thought as to why they do.

We actually live in a socially constructed world, if we wlak around wearing rose tinted glasses then are shocked when things aint that great rather than actually looking at the world before hand.




Musicmystery -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 9:56:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Ok lol.
Truthfully i'm not into politics. Having said that i stayed up and wantched the election, bare in mind it was on at an ungodly hour over here. I truely wanted Obama to win.
He won and i was really pleased, of both the candidates he was the one i trusted and belive will be as true to his word as possible. Having said that i do not belive that he will make good on all of his promises, no politician, prime minister, president ever does.
On the messiah thing, well one of the loose women on the talk show was all 'oh obama will change the world. He will sort out the conflicts in Africa because Africa will listen to a black president. The world is going to be a better place, Obama will have a big effect on Britian'. She may well be right and her absolute confidence that she believed all these things was very addictive.
I however am a little more cynical. The fact we have a black president is not going to change the world. The only way we will change the world is by working together and making good on the things we set out to do. I'm not confident that will happen.
We all know that prospective presidents, prime ministers lie about policy to get votes. I can only hope that Obama makes good on all his policies etc. I will certainly eat my words and make a public apology for doubting him if he does.


Change of that order takes time. One step at a time.

People are excited because after years of refusing to walk, we're taking that first step.

And yes, that's a reason for hope, whether enthusiastic or cynical. There'll be problems and setbacks. There'll be criticism and encouragement. They'll be mistakes and successes.

But there will be steps, and if it seems Obama is getting the world to stand up and walk--it's just that we've been sleeping.




BitaTruble -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 10:07:45 AM)

Well, that's quite a rant, Merc. Setting aside the 'limited mental abilities' comment for the moment I'd like to address the actual issues which you've brought up.

Fairness Doctrine - I'm dead set against it for a variety of reasons. Broadcasters are in the business of making money. Radio shows do that by getting sponsors who want to reach a certain demographic so if you have a theology based radio show, sponsors are not going to be all that interested in giving money to other view points from a demographic that's not going to be interested in purchasing their various products. The easiest thing to do would be to pull out controversial material to keep the sponsors happy. That's not good for end consumers because then we get radio light. Lots of fluff, little substance. The Fairness Doctrine will not educate the masses on conflicting views .. it will take all the views off the table for the sake of sponsorship and the almighty $.

Prop 8 - It should never have been on the ballot in the first place. This is not an either/or concept .. it's an if/then concept. If you want a Constitituion which pertains to everyone then you can't include articles, ammendments etc which only apply to a certain % of the population. Freedom isn't a buzzword and that is the word we should be using here.. not inclusionism. The masses can do what they like to put down, shun or otherwise disenfranchise particular groups of people and if it's okay for the masses to say XX can't marry XX.. then it's equally okay for the masses to say that Catholic XY can't marry Jewish XX. We're passed that and to backslide into that sort of thinking is bad for progress and human rights to do what we like as long as we're not hurting anyone else. The majority don't always get things right and when they don't, it's time for the minority to stand up and shake a fist at it. These days that fist comes in the form of lawsuits etc.

Joe Lieberman - nothing has been decided yet, so much ado about nothing. That said, no one is guarenteed a job in this country, so if he loses his, he can look at himself in the mirror every day and take pride in his principals. Lots of us would have done the same thing, but he is not without his own hypocrasy. Caucus with the dems, vote with them, make a statement that you want to support your good friend in his bid for President .. that's all well and good, but step outside that and support low line and down the line, then reap what you sow. I feel no pity for Joe Lieberman. He's still a member of the Senate, he still has the option of filibuster, and until we know differently, he is still the chair of HS.

Booted Football Player - he can say anything he likes at any time he likes anywhere he likes .. and there are consequences to doing so when you include things which call for 'hunting' people down. You might not like that brand of racism or you might embrace it .. it's still racism .. hatred for Obama because he's black. Not because he might prove to be unfit for the office, or because he's a democrat, but simply because he's black. A 'crime' which would never have been committed means the 'hatred' is the elevator. He has apologized and suffered the consequences of his hatred. He can call Obama any name in the book, but calling out others to hunt him down incites to violence and the actions taking by his coach or school (or whoever made the decision) is their call. UT Football player has no more of a guarentee to play on the team than anyone else in the country has the guarentee of a job. It's not a right, it's a priviledge.

George Bush - Well, as someone who believes he is a criminal, I absolutely cop to calling him names over the last few years. Two wars, another quarter of a million jobs lost in Oct, the highest unemployment rate in the last 14 years, an economy in shambles, 4000+ US soliders dead and buried, Bin Laden still on the loose, an administration wrought, bought and paid for with lies and shadows. The buck stops at the top and I'm angry because I did my job. I read to my kids. I ensured their schooling was only a supplement to their education. They pay taxes, they're productive, they add to this society and right now they are both worried about jobs and $. They are afraid to buy houses because they don't know if they'll be able to pay the mortgage in a few months. Our family doesn't have nor did it ever have a silver spoon, but we've always worked hard, really hard. We've sent our uncles, cousins and sons into war and some of them have died. So, myself and my family having given blood, sweat and tears, literally, to this country and all I asked of Bush was to do his job .. and he didn't. He didn't because he wasn't capable of it. He has neither the intellectual capacity for it nor right temperment. Bush was never inclusive .. he's not about freedom .. He's Patriot Act and 'if you're not with us you're against us' and I've had my fill of it. If that comes across as limited mental abilities, then you haven't been paying enough attention. Point that finger at the top, Merc, because that's where it belongs.. at the very top. And while you're at it.. look in the mirror as well because your rant had it's share of name calling and finger pointing. Great, you don't want to be included. No one is forcing you to be. You have just as much right to shun as others do to embrace. That's your choice.





happypervert -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 10:37:47 AM)

I think there is far more sincerity in this inclusionism bullshit than there ever was in the guy who billed himself as "a uniter, not a divider". As a matter of fact, this inclusionism bullshit is a shrewd appeal to the disgust of the US public along with the rest of the world with the exclusionism bullshit of Dubya's administration.




kittinSol -> RE: "Inclusionism" Bullshit (11/7/2008 10:52:52 AM)

[sm=applause.gif]




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