RE: Are You Equal? (Full Version)

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Missokyst -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/7/2008 10:22:27 PM)

It's all about merchandising.  People put that stuff up without having a clue what it means.  It is either fantasy or.. It's all about him.. until he is snagged.  It is all about her, until he blows a wad. 
This is a generalization of course, but.. pretty predictible.
Kyst




Hathalud -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 2:54:03 AM)

*chuckles* Am I equal to others? The devil's hiding place no... and while nearly all of you don't know me, I'm in a certain degree superior to most... That said, I approach others that I don't know with the expectation being treated as an equal. I'm not superior to others because of any single thing, but because the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Am I being Egoic, probably, but none of my closest friends would disagree with the above statement either.

Now... here's the zinger, I'm predominately submissive.... *chuckles* Bet you thought I was dominant...... So, for me to take a dominant and respect them as superior to me.... they have to earn that right. It's not automatically given to them, they have to earn it the same as my having to earn the right to be their subbie. I'm not inferior to others by any means. There may be areas in life that they may excel at in comparison, but when you get right down to it, if we put in equal effort, then we are equals. Sadly, most are unable to put in an effort to equal me, few match my... intensity.

Just because I have a deep seated need to please others and to make them happy does not mean that I am in any way shape or form inferior to them or anyone else. If and when I submit to another, I am still in a sense equal if talking to a total stranger. It is by choice that I choose to become the inferior as it is their choice to become the superior.

People that only care about getting their needs, wants and desires met and not really caring about the partner in their relationship, be they Dominant or submissive, getting their needs met too is a sign of two things:

1) An over inflated sense of self entitlement. An over inflated sense of entitlement is the biggest cause of trouble in our lives. For instance, when people steal they feel that they deserve whatever it was that they stole or the rewards of said theft.

2) An inability to actually relate to and bond with their partner on an emotional level. Into BDSM or not, if you love, truly love someone in that unconditional way that starts as compassion and grows from there,  you're going to want to see them happy and that means that you have to care enough about their needs to do so. Discard their happiness and you show them how little you really care for them.

Bringing this back to on topic, someone that demands to be respected from the onset of communication for more than the equal that they are until *proven* to the other individual as otherwise, is a fool and a player. Conversely, someone that automaticly assumes that they are inferior is either suffering from extremely low self esteem or playing up to a fantasy of theirs (which probably relates back to the prior one)

Remember, the goal is to attain a level of love and trust that creates a level of devotion that the submissive entrusts their very life in the hands of the Dominant and the Dominant is equally devoted to the submissive enough to not allow undue or excessive harm come to pass upon their precious sub. You just can't do that if you demand from the onset that someone respect you just because you said they had to. Next you'll be demanding that they submit to genital torture with zero experience, warm up or conditioning to what you want to do....just because they are nothing to you but a hunk of flesh to bend to your will

*sighs* All to often humans forget their humanity and that people around them see, think, feel and so on are human too. After all, that's what hostage negotiators do, they remind the hostage takers that the people being held hostage are humans. This type of Dominant is the type to be afraid of and run away from while screaming.

I wanna add more, but I'm ready to pass out. *chuckles and then passes right out mid chuckle*




JustDarkness -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 3:12:24 AM)

every one is equally different




CatdeMedici -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 4:37:47 AM)

I simply could not state it better than Padriag has---its My way or the highway and that's known very clearly upfront-  why? because it is My will and as such I am willing to live alone until I find that someone and if not--so be it.




allthatjaz -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 5:36:43 AM)

and we all do this for our own selfish reasons




OneMoreWaste -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 5:42:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Even the timing and management of meeting of needs is not an absolute. Every need does not necessarily have to be met exactly when it is presented, especially since most people (of either alignment) will tend to overstate the immediacy of a need, and understate the capacity to negotiate fulfillment of that need.

There is, for each individual, and in each dynamic, a hierarchy of needs -- where one's needs may be subsumed, at least for a while, to a need that is on a higher level of he hierarchy.


Good point. I wouldn't say ""My needs always come second to hers/his", because it's too easily reduced to the absurd when people inevitably confuse wants with needs.

I've been hanging around the D/s world long enough that I think it's unrealistic to pose as having no wants/needs/desires that must be fulfilled. In my experience, people just can't live that way over the long term.

However, with that said, I have no desire to be equal- not in D/s dating (for lack of a better term), and certainly not in a relationship. My natural inclination is to yeild, to defer, and to serve. I don't need to be overwhelmed by Domliness or be contractually declared to be Her Submissive first. I want the person I'm with to be happy.




Padriag -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 7:26:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

and we all do this for our own selfish reasons

Absolutely, its human nature to do so.  I say "its my way or the highway" because I want my way, I want what I feel is best for me... and of course I do, we all do (anyone who says otherwise is a liar).  A prospective slave meeting me and considering whether she'd want me for a master looks at what "my way" actually consists of, and decides whether that's of benefit to her or not... is being with me good for her or not.  If it is, she chooses me... for her own selfish reasons... if not, she chooses someone else.  If "my way" changes and stops being of benefit to her, she'll likely leave.  At its root, all human relationships are about such fundamental principles.   This is the underlying logic.

But as humans we slather on loads of emotion on top of that.  We are driven by emotions, and often make choices based on those emotions and then justify them with logic afterwards.  Yet those emotions are a product of a process, there is a logic behind them.  Our emotions are response that evolved as reward or punishment mechanisms for various behaviors.  Love was a reward for being part of an intimate relationship, one that hopefully lasts long enough to rear children to adulthood.  People talk of unconditional love, but such is a myth, there is NO such thing.  An employee of mine once spoke of her unending and unconditional love for her fiance... until she found out he was cheating on her... and suddenly she discovered a condition for her "unending" love.  We're all like that.  We put conditions on our affections and our hate, on our relationships with one another... and doing so is natural.  Unconditional love would be a hugely unhealthy thing... it would mean you would love someone no matter what they did to you... no matter how badly they abused you, hurt you, mistreated you, etc... and that would be patently stupid!  Yet when mistreated, most people don't make a logical choice to leave... instead their love turns to hate or disgust... which afterward they justify that emotion with logic... but it is the emotion that motivates them to leave... or stay... or whatever they do.  Yet behind that emotion, often on an unconscious level... is that underlying logic, the relationship was no longer beneficial, no longer rewarding, for them.




Hathalud -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 10:09:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
People talk of unconditional love, but such is a myth, there is NO such thing.  An employee of mine once spoke of her unending and unconditional love for her fiance... until she found out he was cheating on her... and suddenly she discovered a condition for her "unending" love.  We're all like that.  We put conditions on our affections and our hate, on our relationships with one another... and doing so is natural.  Unconditional love would be a hugely unhealthy thing... it would mean you would love someone no matter what they did to you... no matter how badly they abused you, hurt you, mistreated you, etc... and that would be patently stupid!  Yet when mistreated, most people don't make a logical choice to leave... instead their love turns to hate or disgust... which afterward they justify that emotion with logic... but it is the emotion that motivates them to leave... or stay... or whatever they do.  Yet behind that emotion, often on an unconscious level... is that underlying logic, the relationship was no longer beneficial, no longer rewarding, for them.


It's not a myth inasmuch as an extreme rarity. I still love all my EXs, and sometimes it's because of my unconditional love that we are EXs. A person can still love another, and not need to demonize the other person to leave them if the situation warrants it for whatever reason.

In your example, assuming that the relationship was suppose to be monogamous, I might have left too if that wasn't the only example of how untrust worthy the male was. Unconditional love doesn't mean "I'll be with you forever", instead it's "I care for and apreciate you unconditionally" and it certainly doesn't turn a person into a doormat by itself.

Then again, you're basing your perception of things as reality based on your experience, same as me.  So cheers and have a lovely day.




DesFIP -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 10:11:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

and as such I am willing to live alone until I find that someone and if not--so be it.


That's exactly how I feel about it and I'm submissive. What that means is all of us have things we need to be content in a relationship. I don't ask anyone to compromise on their needs, and I don't compromise on mine.

As a result I waited five years before I found the right one, or actually he found me.

Just because I'm submissive doesn't mean I don't deserve to be happy. Something that too many self proclaimed dominants need to learn, judging by all the threads about why doesn't everyone here have a partner, why don't all subs answer unwanted email, why don't subs agree to be slaves to the first person who tells them to kneel, etc.




gauguin -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 6:01:49 PM)

IMHO any issues with being equal = mental issues

I am sub, but it is my fetish preference, not state of my mind or something.

As well how could you trust someone who thinks you are inferior?





StrtbkNamdDesire -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 6:42:23 PM)

I think we need a definition of terms. Equality of what??? Equality before what? In terms of what?
Egalitarianism? Equality in terms of respect for one another's abilities, wants, needs, hopes, dreams? Equality in terms of purely legal rights?




servantheart -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/8/2008 7:03:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

and we all do this for our own selfish reasons
 
Unconditional love would be a hugely unhealthy thing... it would mean you would love someone no matter what they did to you... no matter how badly they abused you, hurt you, mistreated you, etc... and that would be patently stupid! 


Not necessarily.  Would You argue that most parents' love for their UM is unhealthy?  I don't know a single parent who could/would express hatred for their UM even under the worst of circumstances.  Disappointment?  Anger?  Certainly.  Anyone who has ever dealt with teenagers knows that [;)]
 
Thank goodness unconditional love does exist, because there would be a lot of people who wouldn't make it to adulthood otherwise [8D]
 
 




Gwynvyd -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 3:01:51 PM)

I find these types of concepts to be absurd...

I have a girl.. but it is very new.. and she is not collared yet.

We are all humans.. all born with the same God given rights, free will and duties. I dunno maybe being a UU and our whole "We believe in the inherant worth and dignity of every person" just sticks with me.

No one person is actually above another. Just some chose to take the lead some chose to follow as is their nature.

As Domme yes I do often get my way.. but I am not a bully about it.. nor do I expect her to bend to my whims every time. The things I want and request of her is for both of our betterment, and some times growth. She acknowledges this andd sees the direction I try to move us in.

If I did not lead by example, and with integrity I would not expect anyone to listen to me.

It is the same old arguement "because I said so!" as if one is the parent and on is the child if you believe you are truly better then the other and they should just listen to you damn it. Not a very mature or sane way of going about things is it?

Gwyn




Gwynvyd -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 3:17:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantheart

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

and we all do this for our own selfish reasons
 
Unconditional love would be a hugely unhealthy thing... it would mean you would love someone no matter what they did to you... no matter how badly they abused you, hurt you, mistreated you, etc... and that would be patently stupid! 


Not necessarily.  Would You argue that most parents' love for their UM is unhealthy?  I don't know a single parent who could/would express hatred for their UM even under the worst of circumstances.  Disappointment?  Anger?  Certainly.  Anyone who has ever dealt with teenagers knows that [;)]
 
Thank goodness unconditional love does exist, because there would be a lot of people who wouldn't make it to adulthood otherwise [8D]
 
 


I have in my time seen parents actively hate and hurt their children. It is the saddest thing I think I have witnessed. ( K-9 officer and councilor with abused/runaway teens and rape/crisis counciling )

The usual parent/child bond is not there on one or both sides. Usualy it is lacking on the parents side.

I have seen these children do everything they are capable to try and please and gain approval of the abusive parent. It is that blind unconditional love on their side that keeps them in that loop of searching for love, acceptance, and approval.

I have seen the same in abusive realtionships... where the abused feel they deserved it, and must apease the abuser.. make them love them... it will be better if I do XYZ unquestioningly then they will love me.

These abusers are the same ones who feel the entilement because they think they are better then the abused, more powerful, better equipted to take charge and rule. This is the very basis for abuse. That and fear. Fear the abused will rule over them eventualy or take their place. Esp. durring the comming of age times. This is when abusive parents are at their worst. The son is able to be strong as and chalange his father, and the Daughter is becoming a woman and thereby threatening to the mother.

Unfortunatly most people do not break that cycle.. and they look for their parents ( for good or for bad) subcon. in their mates.

IMHO we are all equals. If more people realized that I think abuse would go down signifigantly in all areas.

Gwyn 




Roselaure -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 4:23:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

IMHO we are all equals. If more people realized that I think abuse would go down signifigantly in all areas.

Gwyn 


I agree Gwyn.  To my way of thinking and to His, we are equal.  Not the same of course, our roles are different, our needs are different but equally important and thankfully, complementary.




servantheart -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 4:40:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantheart

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

and we all do this for our own selfish reasons
 
Unconditional love would be a hugely unhealthy thing... it would mean you would love someone no matter what they did to you... no matter how badly they abused you, hurt you, mistreated you, etc... and that would be patently stupid! 


Not necessarily.  Would You argue that most parents' love for their UM is unhealthy?  I don't know a single parent who could/would express hatred for their UM even under the worst of circumstances.  Disappointment?  Anger?  Certainly.  Anyone who has ever dealt with teenagers knows that [;)]
 
Thank goodness unconditional love does exist, because there would be a lot of people who wouldn't make it to adulthood otherwise [8D]
 
 


I have in my time seen parents actively hate and hurt their children. It is the saddest thing I think I have witnessed. ( K-9 officer and councilor with abused/runaway teens and rape/crisis counciling )

The usual parent/child bond is not there on one or both sides. Usualy it is lacking on the parents side.

I have seen these children do everything they are capable to try and please and gain approval of the abusive parent. It is that blind unconditional love on their side that keeps them in that loop of searching for love, acceptance, and approval.

I have seen the same in abusive realtionships... where the abused feel they deserved it, and must apease the abuser.. make them love them... it will be better if I do XYZ unquestioningly then they will love me.

These abusers are the same ones who feel the entilement because they think they are better then the abused, more powerful, better equipted to take charge and rule. This is the very basis for abuse. That and fear. Fear the abused will rule over them eventualy or take their place. Esp. durring the comming of age times. This is when abusive parents are at their worst. The son is able to be strong as and chalange his father, and the Daughter is becoming a woman and thereby threatening to the mother.

Unfortunatly most people do not break that cycle.. and they look for their parents ( for good or for bad) subcon. in their mates.

IMHO we are all equals. If more people realized that I think abuse would go down signifigantly in all areas.

Gwyn 


Thank You for pointing that out.  You are, of course, right.  There are always (sad; tragic) exceptions to the rule when it comes to parental love.  I was referring to the ideal/average.  I also believe that, though our chosen roles differ in a M/s, D/s dynamic, we are all equal as human beings, and as such, deserving of the basic respect and rights accorded on that basis. 
 




Padriag -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 4:51:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantheart

... we are all equal as human beings, and as such, deserving of the basic respect and rights accorded on that basis. 

A belief we simply do not share.  I see no such equality, nor evidence of it beyond overly cherished idealism.  Neither do I believe any of us is deserving of anything we do not earn.

Seems we don't agree as much as you thought.




servantheart -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 5:01:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantheart

... we are all equal as human beings, and as such, deserving of the basic respect and rights accorded on that basis. 

A belief we simply do not share.  I see no such equality, nor evidence of it beyond overly cherished idealism.  Neither do I believe any of us is deserving of anything we do not earn.

Seems we don't agree as much as you thought.


So it would seem, though I do not base my friendships on the ability to agree 100% of the time.  I do agree with the majority of what You write in Your posts, and that's all I can say. [sm=dunno.gif]
 
To each His/her own and I wish You and Yours the very best. 




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 5:14:19 PM)

I used to apply "my way or the highway", but over the years I have developed it to "my way and there is no highway". This used to equate to "obey or begone" as the two options, and now the options have changed to "obey or obey". The mental shift with this has allowed for a much smoother management of my slaves, because obey or leave seems to have the effect of emotional blackmail. My slaves are allowed to make mistakes, but I demand they learn from it. I am the one that usually determines when it is time for them to go.

Equal? Yeah 1 equals one, and besides that everyone is different so there is no equality. The warm fuzzy that everyone has the same rights is not one of my beliefs. Everyone has the rights that they can claim and defend. Otherwise it is a privilege that is gained by someone else claiming them and giving them to you.




Padriag -> RE: Are You Equal? (11/9/2008 5:16:36 PM)

There's wisdom in that... and in being slow in who we call friend. [;)]




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