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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 6:49:57 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well at the risk of tweaking your nose a bit Lincoln was pretty smart....Once I stop laughing at the expected response to that one,I shall try to gather more relevant examples.LOL

Lincoln was smart, but was he wise?
Wilson was smart, but was he wise?
FDR was smart, but was he wise?
Kennedy was smart, but was he wise?
Nixon was smart, but was he wise?
Clinton was smart, but was he wise?

Tell you what remove Nixon from the list,and we have a conversation here.It would start with me saying yes to all of the above(do me a favor,and plug in LBJ,you may remove Clinton from this list)following that,you would respond with chapter and verse rejecting all of these examples,game on!.....a fun Saturday night for all involved.

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 6:53:06 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ell you what remove Nixon from the list,and we have a conversation here.It would start with me saying yes to all of the above(do me a favor,and plug in LBJ,you may remove Clinton from this list)following that,you would respond with chapter and verse rejecting all of these examples,game on!.....a fun Saturday night for all involved.

Tell you what, Nixon stays, Clinton stays, I'll add LBJ.

Now tell me how any or all of these Presidents were "wise"


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 6:59:12 PM   
slvemike4u


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Nah,we play by my rules Or I don't play.
Tell you what why don't you dispute their wisdom (but I'm begging you do not try to make a case for Nixon's intelligence nor his wisdom he posessed niether...it's a non starter.)

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 11/8/2008 7:11:28 PM >


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 7:17:01 PM   
celticlord2112


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Do we need to take this to a new thread so we don't get accused of hijacking?

Lincoln upended the Constitution to drag the southern states back into the Union by force of arms and much bloodshed.  Was an effective wartime President, but the legacies of Reconstruction and usurpation of state authority by the Federal government cast grave doubts on his wisdom.

Wilson was an idealist who first tried to stay out of WWI, then tried to leverage that conflict into support for a ludicrous League of Nations that would "outlaw" war (and people think World Government and a New World Order are recent ideas)--not exactly my definition of wisdom.

FDR was a creative politician who lengthened the Depression by nearly a decade.  'Nuff said.

Kennedy damn near caused WWIII by rushing off to Vienna to listen to Kruschev lecture him on the supremcy of the Soviet system, thereby setting the stage for the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Turned Vietnam into a national nightmare by sanctioning the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

LBJ and the Great Society, the spending thereof, plus the costs of his escalations in Vietnam, led to the semi-privatization of FannieMae and FreddieMac, which sowed the seeds of the current mortgage financing debacle.  His overreaching, and that of the Congress after 1964, created the social wreckage that was the end of the 1960s.

Nixon altered the trajectory of the Cold War by going to China, but also had the stupidity of Watergate.  'Nuff said there too.

Clinton was smart and articulate, but his everlasting legacy of no lasting Presidential legacy doesn't establish him as a particularly "wise" individual.


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 7:24:24 PM   
popeye1250


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Mike, why do you always *want* so much?
Look at all the "smart" people in Washington and Wall st who've gotten us into such a mess.
They keep telling us that they have "degrees" and that they're "smart" but I wonder how many MBAs who are slumming it as stockbrokers got their clients out of the stockmarket in the middle of Sept just before things headed South?
It's the "smart people" with the "degrees" who caused this mess not "Joe the Plumber.

C.L., I think Clinton's "legacy" is pretty much epitomised in his "Library" which looks like a "double-wide."
You can dress him up in a $1,000 suit but he's still white trash.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/8/2008 7:27:51 PM >


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 7:47:58 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Do we need to take this to a new thread so we don't get accused of hijacking?

Lincoln upended the Constitution to drag the southern states back into the Union by force of arms and much bloodshed.  Was an effective wartime President, but the legacies of Reconstruction and usurpation of state authority by the Federal government cast grave doubts on his wisdom.
1) We have had this dance previously,with niether of us giving ground.Do you really want to do it again.
Wilson was an idealist who first tried to stay out of WWI, then tried to leverage that conflict into support for a ludicrous League of Nations that would "outlaw" war (and people think World Government and a New World Order are recent ideas)--not exactly my definition of wisdom.
2) Trying to stay out of WWI is evidence of a lack of wisdom?Perhaps if his views had been lent more wieght WWII might not have come to pass.Coincidently we wound up with the United Nations at the end of the latter conflict,not exactly a repudiation of the man's vision.
FDR was a creative politician who lengthened the Depression by nearly a decade.  'Nuff said.
3) Pure opinion on your part as to the depression,I know you can cite economic experts to support your claim.I can cite an equal number to dispute it.But I prefer to look at the pre-war and war-time leadership....and with that I'll say 'Nuff said

Kennedy damn near caused WWIII by rushing off to Vienna to listen to Kruschev lecture him on the supremcy of the Soviet system, thereby setting the stage for the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Turned Vietnam into a national nightmare by sanctioning the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
4) Unfortunately this man's grade is incomplete,interrupted by an assasin's bullet in Dallas,that being said you blame him for nearly causing WWIII by touching off the Cuban Missile Crisis....others would credit him for avoiding same by not over-reacting to that crisis,as was suggested to him by his military advisors...a wash there.Grade Incomplete...though he did lend moral wieght to the civil rights movement and for that the nation owes him a debt of gratitude.Not to mention the race to the moon,which yielded untold technological advances, The Peace Corps..on balence well on his way to achieving greatness before Dallas.
LBJ and the Great Society, the spending thereof, plus the costs of his escalations in Vietnam, led to the semi-privatization of FannieMae and FreddieMac, which sowed the seeds of the current mortgage financing debacle.  His overreaching, and that of the Congress after 1964, created the social wreckage that was the end of the 1960s.
5) More legislation passed in one term than any other President .Civil Rights alone stamps his Presidency with both wisdom and greatness.
Nixon altered the trajectory of the Cold War by going to China, but also had the stupidity of Watergate.  'Nuff said there too.
6) It would appear we agree here(though I asked you not to include this criminal here)did more to degrade the prestige of the office than any man ever to hold said office...'Nuff said.
Clinton was smart and articulate, but his everlasting legacy of no lasting Presidential legacy doesn't establish him as a particularly "wise" individual.

7) Might surprise you but not one of my favorites either,smart man cunning politician...but the nickname "slick willie" was well earned.his Presidency led to the unfortunate reactionary election of Bushie...so no,not wise...not even terribly intelligent,his wife would have made a better President than him.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:09:35 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

We have had this dance previously,with niether of us giving ground.Do you really want to do it again.

Not really, but it was either that or attempt yet again to educate you on clam chowder....question of which was the lesser hurdle to overcome.


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:12:34 PM   
servantheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

We have had this dance previously,with niether of us giving ground.Do you really want to do it again.

Not really, but it was either that or attempt yet again to educate you on clam chowder....question of which was the lesser hurdle to overcome.



Perhaps this should be hashed out over the phone 

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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:13:42 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantheart

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

We have had this dance previously,with niether of us giving ground.Do you really want to do it again.

Not really, but it was either that or attempt yet again to educate you on clam chowder....question of which was the lesser hurdle to overcome.



Perhaps this should be hashed out over the phone 

Preferably over one or a dozen beers (assuming I don't have to educate mike in the finer points of ale as well!)


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:21:50 PM   
slvemike4u


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As you well know CL,real men drink Bourbon,which probably explains your love of ales....but since you brought it up your preferance for creme in your chowder obviously disqualifies you from intelligent rankings of our Presidents.After all if a man can't even order his chowder correctly how can he attempt to discern wisdom in others...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:25:17 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

After all if a man can't even order his chowder correctly how can he attempt to discern wisdom in others...

You're going to discern wisdom (or anything else) after drinking Bourbon?

This explains much....


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:27:59 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

As you well know CL,real men drink Bourbon,which probably explains your love of ales....but since you brought it up your preferance for creme in your chowder obviously disqualifies you from intelligent rankings of our Presidents.After all if a man can't even order his chowder correctly how can he attempt to discern wisdom in others...


C'mon Mike, everyone knows only "girly-men" like their chowder "New York Style" and not the hardier, tough New England style of our Founding Fathers which sustained them through the brutal winters!
Guys who drive Japanese cars like "New York Style" chowder.

P.S. check out my new wheels in my profile.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/8/2008 8:28:52 PM >


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:35:44 PM   
jhymesba


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Real simple.  Bad laws and bad resolutions can only be the result of Congress.  The President has no official capacity to introduce any legislation in either the House or the Senate.

For every ill laid at the feet of President Bush, Congress had the power and presumptive duty to say "Yes" or "No".

If Bush's ideas were so horrible and so patently wrong, why did so many in Congress on both sides of the aisle go along with them?  If Bush was so out of control as President, why did the Congress not use their legislative powers to rein him in?

Either Bush was not as bad as many would like to believe, or Congress indulged and even encouraged his excesses.  Either way, the branch of our government most directly accountable to the people is not the President, but the Congress.



For six of Bush's 8 years, he had the backing of a Republican House and Republican Senate.    During that time, he vetoed 1 bill, a stem-cell bill.   Both the Iraq War and Afghanistan war were passed under a Republican administration.  The current situation, caused by excessive inflation in food and energy prices combined with continued outsourcing of domestic labor, forcing people to either cut back on their budget or finance their life with loans (which many chose to do) resulted in a situation where reality caught up with the hype of housing refinance and the bottom fell out of the market.   That inflation was caused by inflation in American dollars because we printed more to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan instead of responsibly increasing taxes and encouraging Americans to fund the war through War bonds, much like how previous wars were financed.   Combine that with the American Consumer's thirst for Chinese made cheap shit and American Government's thirst for Chinese loans, and China, already a big power, becomes much larger and starts consuming much larger amounts of energy, food, and other resources.  Combine that with outsourcing our middle-end IT jobs and India starts getting more thirsty for oil and other stuff as well.  The attack on Congress seems to be a back-door attack on the Democrats.   OK, I'll give you that the Congress was at fault.   The congress, for the 6 years that this was taking shape, and for the 6 previous years that Clinton was in office, was Republican.  Therefore, I submit, it's the Republicans fault all this went down...at least mostly.

And all this can be pegged mostly on Republicans, though I do blame the Democrats for their share of it as well.  However, in the blame game, 80% goes to the Rs, and 20% to the Ds, IMO.

Incidently, our way out of the quagmire we find ourselves in is the thing the Right screams the most about.

1)  Increase taxes.    The funding for the Iraq war has to come from somewhere.   Let everyone pay their share, though if I were Obama, my BIGGEST source for Tax Dollars would be the Military/Industrial complex.   "You want your war?  Fine.  Pay for it."

2)  Punish companies who offshore.  Reward those who employ American workers.  Yes, I know.   "Businesses should be encouraged to deliver a profit to their shareholders, nothing else."   Balony, I say.   You want to party in the American Consumer Market?  Give something back.

3)  Retain the 'Death Tax'.   You want your children to make big bucks?   Then teach them how to do it.  No more of this 'giving my dollars to my kids' and having them turn out like Bush Jr., who ran two companies, a baseball team, AND a country into the ground.  

4)  Rework the system to punish failure again.   "Too big to fail?"  I think not.   You take the risks, you suffer the consequences.  

5)  End the wars and curtail foreign involvement.   Doubly so for the Arabians. Ending the war will cut our expenses by several billion a month!   And if your population doesn't like us?   Well, that's OK.  We'll just cut you high and dry.  Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.

6)  Develop alternatives to fossil fuels.    That creates jobs locally which means more money in the American Economy, cuts out some of the old fluff (by forcing rich-cat CEOs of Oil companies to get on the ball or get Left Behind(tm)).   The results of this development may well save our planet or push catastrophic change down the road until we can actually do something more about it.

My only 'kind words' for Bush are:  "Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya."   Good ridance to bad rubbish, I say.

(And man, do I love that little animated smiley)

< Message edited by jhymesba -- 11/8/2008 8:42:54 PM >

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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:38:04 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

After all if a man can't even order his chowder correctly how can he attempt to discern wisdom in others...

You're going to discern wisdom (or anything else) after drinking Bourbon?

This explains much....

Good enough for Bogie ,good enough for me.
Popeye being from Mass. I will forgive you your error,but in truth you have relocated isn't it about time you spread your wings a bit and have some real chowder...MANHATTAN STYLE!!!!!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:39:45 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

And all this can be pegged mostly on Republicans, though I do blame the Democrats for their share of it as well. However, in the blame game, 80% goes to the Rs, and 20% to the Ds, IMO.

I blame Congress.  I don't do parties, unless there's a keg involved.

It doesn't matter which party is in control.  Congress as a whole has a prescribed duty under the Constitution, as does the President.  Nowhere in the Constitution are "Democrat" or "Republican" mentioned.

One thing is beyond dispute:  Congress as a whole has certainly earned the contempt of the American people.


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 8:49:29 PM   
jhymesba


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I blame Congress.  I don't do parties, unless there's a keg involved.

It doesn't matter which party is in control.  Congress as a whole has a prescribed duty under the Constitution, as does the President.  Nowhere in the Constitution are "Democrat" or "Republican" mentioned.

One thing is beyond dispute:  Congress as a whole has certainly earned the contempt of the American people.



Actually, I do dispute it.   The Republicans have earned the contempt of the American people (for the time being).  Just look at the results of the last election.  Democrats were, as a whole, returned to their offices while Republicans (including Marylin Musgrave, thank the Lord) have been shown the door.    When the Constitution was written, Parties didn't exist.  However, that little rebuke doesn't address the fact that they became important afterwards, and our system of politics could not exist without political parties.

To ignore the parties contributions to the House and Senate is to ignore the fact that the House and Senate Republicans did everything in their power short of actually convicting Clinton in the 90s to short circuit him, happily participated in the goings on of 2001 through 2006 (I won't even say they rolled over.   Rolling over implies disagreement or apathy.  These guys willingly went along with it), and then shut down the Senate whenever any Democratic legislation came up (and what got through them got blocked by Bush himself).  

Your beliefs aside, Bush and the Republicans did have a hand in this, and IMO, they hold the lions share of the blame. 

< Message edited by jhymesba -- 11/8/2008 8:50:19 PM >

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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 9:24:18 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Try looking at voting records and holding the politicians accountable for their individual actions. For too long they have been hoping people would just blame the admin, or the party warfare would continue. I have done my part in my state by voting against the incumbants and sent an email to them and who I voted for, to let them know why I was voting the way I did.

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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 9:26:51 PM   
MissSCD


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President Bush should help.  His first job is to help find a home at the WhiteHouse for Obama's rabbits.  President Elect Obama has four rabbits as pets for his children.
I think that is amusing.
 
Regards, MissSCD

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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/8/2008 9:30:31 PM   
theobserver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

President-Elect Obama ran a disciplined, focused, well-organized and well-resourced campaign, both in the primary and the general election. He's already demonstrating the same this week with his transition team, working on White House staff, defense, and the economy.

But I want to credit President Bush, who promised "unprecedented cooperation" in the transition, and by all accounts, has been absolutely true to his word, from office space in the Treasury ready, to invitations to join in world conferences, to opening the door to implementing new economic ideas, to making unquestionably clear that a new president has been elected and he will support him fully.

I'm impressed.


I will say this ...

And some may disagree. I see Bush almost the same as I see McCain. They are two individuals that were caught in the shadow of their father and grandfather. The pressure and need to live up to and beyond those expectations must've been enormous.

I hope that in the future, both can look back on history and give us the truth. If I could just get the truth from them, I'd show them a lot more respect.

< Message edited by theobserver -- 11/8/2008 9:31:38 PM >


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RE: A few kind words for President Bush - 11/9/2008 2:07:05 AM   
ShieldWolf


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You're wrong on every point.

The President's duty is spelled out very clearly by the oath of office.
quote:


"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Bush failed to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution.


Well so did Clinton when he chose Reno for Attorney General. She was worse than Ashcroft in that job when it came to protecting rights. Neither of the major parties has anything but shame or at best indifference to the Constitution. That is what still prompts a small group to still try to be heard in the wilderness and to "throw" their votes away each election cycle. As the Libertarian party points out every two years the pols throw this accusation against the other party's splinter while ignoring the beam in their own eye.

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