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RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:26:18 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

Quality made "green"/electric cars!
That is the future!!!!
I love the idea!

I just saw an ad for a Chrsyler mini-van, it had some sort of table, and a t.v. or something in it.
In this economy, do we need to make that many cars loaded up with bells, whistles and the kitchen sink that cost 40K?

Many of us would just love well made, solid good reliable INEXPENSIVE cars!

I just hope we can do this, without 2.5 million people losing their
jobs, permanently.

General Motors | Current Offers and Incentives | GM ---go to the website, buy a car, save the company!
They are all on sale!

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/8/2008 9:45:02 AM >

_____________________________

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

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"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MasterG2kTR)

Post #: 21

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:39:28 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Another thing I would love to see is more money invested into our infrastructure. Why not spend those bazillions of dollars developing a viable mass transit system rather than bailing out dying bloated dinosaurs?

Granted, I am no specialist but what is wrong with more trains? I drive 60 miles, one way, to work. The person I carpool with goes on another 20 miles. Most of that is along a major freeway along with other commuters. Everyone I've talked to that takes that same route would happily board a train rather than drive. Sure, we would have to drive to the station. But 10 miles versus 60 plus 20, would be awsome.

Of course, if the towns nearer the farm were actually adding industry instead of closing it, we might not have to drive.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 22

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:47:06 AM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

but what other products are even
made in America these days?

The products I make are made in America. They are even made in my barn/workshop. Hand made, heirloom quality furniture. You can give it to your grandchildren. Cabinets that last for the life of your home - no need to replace them every 10 -12 years.

Dungeon furniture and accessories. Custom fit, safe, well detailed. All are made of superior materials. Do you want a St. Andrews made of real walnut? I do that. Or any other premium hard wood.

Am I pluggin just a little? You betcha. I need the work.

As another suggested our markets have been canabalized to the point that Americans can't afford American products anymore. In my case clients want my quality, but they want it at Wal*Mart or Value City prices. That isn't really possible. Many cannot afford to pay for quality as thier real wages have not increased for 20 or so years.

Those who have championed free trade and free markets have been disengenuous. Neither of those has existed. Instead we had regulations that favored only a few and that was packaged and sold to us as being free trade and free market.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 23

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:48:59 AM

Thunderbird56

Posts: 87
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

Let's not go too gaga over "electric" cars ... at least not with the current state of affordable technology. They aren't all that "green" anyway. For the most part we burn oil and coal to make electricity. Then there's a roughly 15 - 20% "line loss" just to send the electricity over the wires to get to your house. Re-charging the batteries isn't "free" either, a lot of power is lost as heat in the process of re-charging. What's the impact and expense of all that lead and acid on the environment when you have to replace 25 dead / weak batteries every 2 years or so?
I'm not saying electric cars don't have potential (a pun for those that know) just that they aren't the *salvation* that everyone seems to think they are.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 24

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:51:52 AM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

The US does have one thriving industry - weapons and defense. Now why is it we're in Iraq?

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Thunderbird56)

Post #: 25

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:57:33 AM

youngsubgeoff

Posts: 900
Joined: 9/25/2007
From: The Asylum
Status: offline

This is proof of poor management at GM. They have been the biggest auto maker in the world for over 40 years, and yet theyre losing ground? Last year they moved over 70 billion cars around the world, more than toyota, honda, or any other car manufacturer. This sounds an awful lot like blackmail to me.

_____________________________

You dont need to question my sanity, I can assure you Im quite mad. Its ok though, all the best people are

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Post #: 26

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 11:02:16 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

On CNBC a few nights ago I saw a commentator who said that Honda and Toyota plants in Georgia and other states are getting state tax breaks and, ...are paying their employees *half* of what GM, Ford and Chrysler are!
That doesn't sound like "competition" to me!
It's funny, I see these shows on t.v. about hedge fund managers who make $5M a year, executives who make $400-$800k per year, lawyers who make $Millions and all kinds of other "suits" who make obscene amounts of money *complaining* about working people "making $40 an hour!"
I mean ***W.T.F???***
But it's alright for "them" to be making $4,000 an hour? For shuffling papers?
Hedge fund managers produce *nothing!* They're fucking *money changers!*
The unadulterated GREED in this country is just unbelievable!
You make $5 or $10 million per year and you begrudge someone $40 an hour?
It's like "efficiency experts", they want *you* to do something that *they'd* never do.
One thing that we should demand as Taxpayers is that any company that we loan money to FIRE the top 1/3 of management!
These are the *ASSHOLES* that have "managed" this economy into the crapper, not "Joe the Plumber!"
Sure, lets drop people from $40 an hour down to $20 an hour!
So then we can drop the price of a $30,000 car down to $15,000,.....right?
The problem with this economy is that there aren't *enough* people making $40 an hour who can afford $30,000 cars, not that there's "too many!"
And how's about a "minimum wage" for the management in companies that accept Taxpayer loans, say....$50k per year?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/8/2008 11:11:10 AM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 27

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 11:12:12 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff

This is proof of poor management at GM. They have been the biggest auto maker in the world for over 40 years, and yet theyre losing ground?

Just FYI, part of the burden GM faces with respect to costs is having about 2.5 retired workers on pension and healthcare plans for every employee.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UDO/is_/ai_96575335
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/24/business/fi-gm24

K.

(in reply to youngsubgeoff)

Post #: 28

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 11:26:09 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thunderbird56

Let's not go too gaga over "electric" cars...

Not to argue your main points, but just FYI with respect to technology, check out this little beastie.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/8/2008 11:28:04 AM >

(in reply to Thunderbird56)

Post #: 29

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 12:29:30 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thunderbird56

Let's not go too gaga over "electric" cars...

Not to argue your main points, but just FYI with respect to technology, check out this little beastie.

K.

The only problem I see is the $100,000 price tag.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 30

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 2:48:52 PM

MasterG2kTR

Posts: 6677
Joined: 8/7/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

That $100,000 price tag would come way down in mass production, right now every Tesla is hand made.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 31

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 3:45:28 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

No more bailouts. There never should have been any bailouts in the first place. Bailouts in general are just more band-aids... treating symptoms of poor structure or poor management.

Exactly. The entire US system is premised on companies doing what's best for their customers/employees/stockholders. That way they can stay in business and thrive.

The absolute WORST thing we could do is permit a badly run company to keep running badly. And spend tax dollars to do it.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 32

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 4:35:03 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I said they need to be re-structured, tore up from the floor up and rebuilt.

You mean, like our monetary system? ...

Hehe yep. Reminds me of a friend...a university professor (well...not much of a reminder because it just happened this week), who is convinced America needs to just finish collapsing before it can rebuild...and so voted for Obama because he's convinced he'll be the best one to help the US finish collapsing. (Then the day after Obama was elected he renounced his American citizenship leaving the country.)

Shouldn't you be packing?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to nightphoenix)

Post #: 33

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 5:47:44 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

GM, Ford, Chrysler should be allowed to fail. I never stopped being amazed by people that think bailouts are free, they aren't. For every bit of help you grant GM you will be causing other business or individuals to be burdened by that help thus making them more likely to fail.

It really seems people really believe one can help without hurting in these monetary schemes, it is a complete fallacy, you will be driving someone else out there closer to bankruptcy or another business.

And I'm sick of hearing people throw around the solution that the government should buy these companies, the government is not a BUSINESS, it is in charge of handling disputes between business, and individuals. What you are proposing is the common definition of socialism, the state controlling the means of production, which means the state is everything at that point. And how people don't see a conflict of interest when the entity that owns a particular enterprise is also in charge of handling contract disputes(court), is well beyond me.

I mean, for crying out loud just look at the banks, they got gobs of money from the government, and they are still clamping down on credit, they are hoarding like it is going out of style. There has been little trickle down. But here we go again, wanting to save GM for GMs benefit. Fuck GM. Fuck the Banks. Let people survive on their own merits, and pursue their own ambitions without the burden of propping up blind car companies, and banks.

Seriously, you can not give money without stealing it from another unless it is yours, and in this case it isn't yours to give, we as a nation are much to casual about stealing others money for a few peoples benefit, very morally defunct position if you ask me.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 34

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:01:03 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

NeedTo..., look up Horatio Bunce. You will love it.

T

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 35

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:16:26 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

All these big companies wanted the "benefits" of "free trade" that is low cost labor in foreign countries.
That's not "free trade" that's "outsourcing.
Of course they didn't expect the adverse effects i.e.millions of people's wages being pushed down so far by these "free trade" deals that they can no longer afford $30k for a new car.
There's maybe 40 million people in this country today who could afford to buy a new car 10 years ago but can't today.
That's 40 million cars!
That's what the "smart people" in Washington and Wall Street have done to themselves and to the whole country, they gave themselves a "reach around" and the dumb fuckers, oh, excuse me, "smart people"don't even know it!
Now, if people could afford to buy 40 million new cars today these companies wouldn't need a bailout from,...the people who can't afford to buy their cars anymore would they!
Am I close?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 36

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:30:41 PM

MasterG2kTR

Posts: 6677
Joined: 8/7/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

When NAFTA was in it's infancy, the one man we could have elected who was against was absolutely right about it....yes....H. Ross Perot said it best...."you hear that sucking sound? That's all the jobs being sucked out of this nation!" As silly as his campaign may have seemed at the time, being a true businessman, I think he would have done this nation a lot of financial good.

ok it's late and my mind is drifting a little.....but it's still a worthy point to make

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 37

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:32:30 PM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline

Well I am a GM autoworker been in the same plant 19 years ...my son is a Toyota autoworker been there 3 ... guess who makes more hourly?? .. not me... I make $3 less an hour... my bonuses are half of what he gets ...plus they cost saving incentives and often rewards for get top award like a lap top ...if we are luck we may get a free hamburger that is tied in with the United way campaign

one thing I learned is the news does not always report accurately or without bias ... so Popeye that maybe the case for the commentary you heard

both the American and foreign automakers are now hiring new workers at far less money ..this was started by GM   unlike GM Toyota will eventually over the period of 2 or 3 year bring the new worker up to the same wages as the senior employees ... GM has no plans for that they want to keep the wages low   so have install a 2 tier wage system   once the older worker retire they will be replaced with those making about 1/2 the wages ... sadly those new workers will not be earning enough now to afford to buy a new GM vehicle nor will they be able to afford a house unless they have spouse making more than them so new vehicles sales will suffer along with the housing markets, and the service industry with the significantly lower wages since they won't have the spending money which adds further harm to the economy

   direct worker wages   equals about 2% of the cost of a car   this was before the 2 tier system ..so the savings by cutting workers wages in half   is not going to have any impact on the selling price of a vehicle.. in the 19 years I have worked in the plant I have watched the management population multiple enomorously about 5 times the number   yet the workforce has decreased by about a 1000. so any workforce wage cuts saving in a car price is totally lost by management wages ... GM did the cuts at the wrong end
the 20 % management cuts   never occured in my place instead they are still bringing in new management...... we will stop making one SUV in the coming year ...the big joke is ..it will be replace by a BIGGER SUV....   Suzuki is looking at offering GM a small econo car to build in the plant I work in....they will I feel would be our saviour in keeping the plant doors open ...that is if GM is not so stupid to start throwing their weight around and bullying Suzuki again to put cheaper foreign parts in instead of Suzuki supplying the parts... the last time GM did that Suzuki walked away ... the old GM metros had Suzuki engines and trannies they got excellent mileage and the motors were good and lasted the vehicle was designed by Suzuki and they used to have their engineers right on the floor making sure any problems were taken care of right away in those days with the Suzuki engineers there quality counted ...unlike today .where we can point out problems as employees and management will say it is good enough we are not wasting the time to fix ...ship it.    As workers ..we know quality is important for our futures so it is frustrating to watch crap go out the door ..some of us have tried to stand up to try and detour a vehicle instead to get repaired and have had our jobs threatened .. I have had my hand slapped for continuing to write up defects after management told me to ignore.... just last month on particular day every vehicle we built the front passenger door had 2 dents causing by a welding jig .. the vehicles were shipped as is

So I am one that would look forward a lot to seeing japanese managers and engineers back inside the plant having seen how things run with and without them

I was hugely disappointed when I learned the selling price of the Volt in my opinion they would be far better off bringing back the earlier model Metro hatch back for $12,000 and that GM is not really doing much to change their practices that have gotten them into the mess they are currently in...and hoping that when Suzuki offers them a car they do not shoot themselves in the foot again over greed to gain a larger profit margin they need small affordable econo cars desperately

And it does not help when I see the consummable prices that GM is paying for things like work gloves and exacto knives,.. I can walk into a retail store and buy an exacto knife for $2 and they are buying the exact same thing for $18 or a matika drill for a 1/4 of what they are paying ..the prices they are paying for these goods are absolutely obscene yet they refuse to change suppliers

GM will get their bailout only because of the spinoff effect when plants are closed because for every autoworker job lost about 20 other jobs are lost so having plants shutdown end up costing the government more in social assistance and unemployment

_____________________________

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Post #: 38

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:41:49 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

Horatio Bunce

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

NeedTo..., look up Horatio Bunce. You will love it.

T

Looked up read it, the story sums it up, and our progressively moving away from that view has manifested in this mess of a government. Corporate Welfare, Individual Welfare, grants, special loans, government buying up businesses, Foreign company incentives, etc.... Some like one half or the other half of welfare but they tend to come in opposing and equally canceling pairs, however the only real side effect is that it results in government having more power and control and the cumulative mass of the people having less.

The technical term is clusterfuck spawned from unbridled greed and/or sympathy in a system that shouldn't legitimize either as an actionable situation in a government context.

Anyway, if people really are so concerned about GM, stop buying Toyota, and proposing stealing from everyone else in the country to save your conscience(double think at its finest). Steal from the poor, middle class and wealthy, to give help to a big corp. LOL.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 11/8/2008 9:46:31 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 39

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 11:41:13 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

Well I am a GM autoworker been in the same plant 19 years ...my son is a Toyota autoworker been there 3 ... guess who makes more hourly?? .. not me... I make $3 less an hour... my bonuses are half of what he gets ...plus they cost saving incentives and often rewards for get top award like a lap top ...if we are luck we may get a free hamburger that is tied in with the United way campaign

one thing I learned is the news does not always report accurately or without bias ... so Popeye that maybe the case for the commentary you heard

both the American and foreign automakers are now hiring new workers at far less money ..this was started by GM   unlike GM Toyota will eventually over the period of 2 or 3 year bring the new worker up to the same wages as the senior employees ... GM has no plans for that they want to keep the wages low   so have install a 2 tier wage system   once the older worker retire they will be replaced with those making about 1/2 the wages ... sadly those new workers will not be earning enough now to afford to buy a new GM vehicle nor will they be able to afford a house unless they have spouse making more than them so new vehicles sales will suffer along with the housing markets, and the service industry with the significantly lower wages since they won't have the spending money which adds further harm to the economy

direct worker wages   equals about 2% of the cost of a car   this was before the 2 tier system ..so the savings by cutting workers wages in half   is not going to have any impact on the selling price of a vehicle.. in the 19 years I have worked in the plant I have watched the management population multiple enomorously about 5 times the number   yet the workforce has decreased by about a 1000. so any workforce wage cuts saving in a car price is totally lost by management wages ... GM did the cuts at the wrong end
the 20 % management cuts   never occured in my place instead they are still bringing in new management...... we will stop making one SUV in the coming year ...the big joke is ..it will be replace by a BIGGER SUV....   Suzuki is looking at offering GM a small econo car to build in the plant I work in....they will I feel would be our saviour in keeping the plant doors open ...that is if GM is not so stupid to start throwing their weight around and bullying Suzuki again to put cheaper foreign parts in instead of Suzuki supplying the parts... the last time GM did that Suzuki walked away ... the old GM metros had Suzuki engines and trannies they got excellent mileage and the motors were good and lasted the vehicle was designed by Suzuki and they used to have their engineers right on the floor making sure any problems were taken care of right away in those days with the Suzuki engineers there quality counted ...unlike today .where we can point out problems as employees and management will say it is good enough we are not wasting the time to fix ...ship it.    As workers ..we know quality is important for our futures so it is frustrating to watch crap go out the door ..some of us have tried to stand up to try and detour a vehicle instead to get repaired and have had our jobs threatened .. I have had my hand slapped for continuing to write up defects after management told me to ignore.... just last month on particular day every vehicle we built the front passenger door had 2 dents causing by a welding jig .. the vehicles were shipped as is

So I am one that would look forward a lot to seeing japanese managers and engineers back inside the plant having seen how things run with and without them

I was hugely disappointed when I learned the selling price of the Volt in my opinion they would be far better off bringing back the earlier model Metro hatch back for $12,000 and that GM is not really doing much to change their practices that have gotten them into the mess they are currently in...and hoping that when Suzuki offers them a car they do not shoot themselves in the foot again over greed to gain a larger profit margin they need small affordable econo cars desperately

And it does not help when I see the consummable prices that GM is paying for things like work gloves and exacto knives,.. I can walk into a retail store and buy an exacto knife for $2 and they are buying the exact same thing for $18 or a matika drill for a 1/4 of what they are paying ..the prices they are paying for these goods are absolutely obscene yet they refuse to change suppliers

GM will get their bailout only because of the spinoff effect when plants are closed because for every autoworker job lost about 20 other jobs are lost so having plants shutdown end up costing the government more in social assistance and unemployment

Maya, good post, very informative!
So, they have five times as many managers now as they did 15 years or so ago?
Do they "promote from within" that is take people from the floor and promote them to management like the most successful companies do?
Anyone who says you can't is full of shit.
I have a B.S. in Bus. Admn.
The first thing they tell you in a new job is; "Forget what they told you in ....... college, we'll teach you *our way.*
Oh, and surely there'll be a "two tier system" for management too right?
It sounds like they need to cut loose a bunch of management too, sounds top heavy!
That was the genious of Henry Ford, he raised the wages to $5 a day in his factories so that they could afford to buy the cars they were building.
Real simple! And extremely effective! His sales shot up through the roof!
We have a lot of so- called "managers" today who think it's a "bad" thing for the workforce in their companies to make a good week's pay!
Don't they want their employees to be able to afford to buy the products they are making?
That's the type of "thinking" out there today and why so many of these companies are in trouble.
Oh, there's Toyota, Nissan, and other car plants in the U.S., how many Cadillac plants do we have in Japan?
If we loan these companies any Taxpayer dollars we need to have the condition attached that they fire the top one third of management.
Those are the guys that have run these companies into the ground!
Why would they want to keep them on? You get rid of the fuck ups!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/8/2008 11:52:41 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Maya2001)

Post #: 40

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