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RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:02:40 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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Sheesh, i am so lost in a thread like this.

quote:

Somehow, somewhere, something has gone really really wrong when love is considered a bad thing.

Thats one hell of a blanket statement there. I don't need to be loved and i don't particularly want to be loved at this time in my life. So for me at this moment yes love is considered a bad thing. Has something gone really wrong for me to think that way? No lol. I'm just not in a place where i want all that complication in my life.

quote:

If we attempted to apply this idea to a parental dynamic where one was advised to not love their children to make discipline easier, the statement would probably be viewed as ludicrous. Since parents manage to effectively manage an authority dynamic without their emotional attachment becoming a burden, it shouldn't necessarily be an issue in a D/S relationship.

You can't apply this ideal to a parental dynamic. As a parent you love your children, you are not in love with them. There is a huge difference.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 21

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:11:42 PM

oceanwynds

Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
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Thank you Darcy for sharing this with us. I too had that once upon a time, though many would called it vanilla.

Now I taken what was given to me by my late husband and had moved it forward to serve Sir. Fear of losing is something that will be, but knowing what can be experienced totally out weighs the fear. Sir sounds in many ways like you. I have great respect for him. He is not afraid to be all of who he is.

I have great respect for the both of you .
blessings
oceanwynds

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 22

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:17:49 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

If we attempted to apply this idea to a parental dynamic where one was advised to not love their children to make discipline easier, the statement would probably be viewed as ludicrous. Since parents manage to effectively manage an authority dynamic without their emotional attachment becoming a burden, it shouldn't necessarily be an issue in a D/S relationship.

You can't apply this ideal to a parental dynamic. As a parent you love your children, you are not in love with them. There is a huge difference.

I disagree. There might be a difference in the type of love being expressed, but the issue isn't the kind of love but rather the lowest common denominator of both being emotionally attached to a person.

Whether your attached to a lover in a sexual form of love or to a child in a parental form of love isn't important, becasue the attachment itself is what clouds decisions and perceptions.

It's why they have the phrase "tough love" in reference to parents which equally applies to a D/S authority dynamic.

I know parents and dominants who have both had the shared experience of struggling to discipline their subordinate.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 23

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:21:22 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

I disagree. There might be a difference in the type of love being expressed, but the issue isn't the kind of love but rather the lowest common denominator of both being emotionally attached to a person.

Whether your attached to a lover in a sexual form of love or to a child in a parental form of love isn't important, becasue the attachment itself is what clouds decisions and perceptions.

It's why they have the phrase "tough love" in reference to parents which equally applies to a D/S authority dynamic.

I know parents and dominants who have both had the shared experience of struggling to discipline their subordinate.

We will have to beg to differ on this one.
I have personally experienced both and i can tell you in my experience as a parent and domme the struggles of discipling were / are distinctly different because of the difference of being in love or just loving.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 24

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:24:34 PM

MadRabbit

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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

I disagree. There might be a difference in the type of love being expressed, but the issue isn't the kind of love but rather the lowest common denominator of both being emotionally attached to a person.

Whether your attached to a lover in a sexual form of love or to a child in a parental form of love isn't important, becasue the attachment itself is what clouds decisions and perceptions.

It's why they have the phrase "tough love" in reference to parents which equally applies to a D/S authority dynamic.

I know parents and dominants who have both had the shared experience of struggling to discipline their subordinate.

We will have to beg to differ on this one.
I have personally experienced both and i can tell you in my experience as a parent and domme the struggles of discipling were / are distinctly different because of the difference of being in love or just loving.

I never asserted they weren't different and it's really the price of tea in china. We're debating a weak analogy I used to try and express a point and not the point itself.

The point being that emotional attachment doesn't have to be avoided in D/S relationships and aren't a universal liability as the cliche stated makes it out to be.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/10/2008 5:26:14 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 25

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:27:53 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

I never asserted they were different and it's really the price of tea in china. We're debating a weak analogy I used to try and express a point and not the point itself.

No you didn't, you used them as a like for like comparison. I merely pointed out that as a parent that wasn't true. You are right it was a weak analogy. I don't see it as the price of tea in china, you made a comparison of them being the same, i pointed out that in my opinion they are not.

quote:

The point being that emotional attachment doesn't have to be avoided in D/S relationships and aren't a universal liability as the cliche stated makes it out to be.

Very true but in my opinion your analogy did not back up your point.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 11/10/2008 5:29:13 PM >

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 26

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:30:06 PM

MadRabbit

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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

I never asserted they were different and it's really the price of tea in china. We're debating a weak analogy I used to try and express a point and not the point itself.

No you didn't, you used them as a like for like comparison. I merely pointed out that as a prent that wasn't true. You are right it was a weak analogy. I don't see it as the price of tea in china, you made a comparison of them being the same, i pointed out that in my opinion they are not.

quote:

The point being that emotional attachment doesn't have to be avoided in D/S relationships and aren't a universal liability as the cliche stated makes it out to be.

Very true but in my case your analogy did not prove your point.

Are you claiming that there has never been a parent out there who has a hard time with disciplining a child because they love them like dominants have had hard times disciplining submissives because love got in the way?

Just curious, can you elaborate on the differences between the two in your personal experiences?

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 27

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:36:52 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

Are you claiming that there has never been a parent out there who has a hard time with disciplining a child because they love them like dominants have had hard times disciplining submissives because love got in the way?

No i'm not claiming that at all. I'm claiming that the emotion behind punishing your child is different than that of punishing your s type who you are in love with.

quote:

Just curious, can you elaborate on the differences between the two in your personal experiences?

To be honest i don't want to get too close to TOS with this. I will mail you on the other side with my reply to your question where i am more able to be open about the answer.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 28

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:38:30 PM

MadRabbit

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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Are you claiming that there has never been a parent out there who has a hard time with disciplining a child because they love them like dominants have had hard times disciplining submissives because love got in the way?

No i'm not claiming that at all. I'm claiming that the emotion behind punishing your child is different than that of punishing your s type who you are in love with.

That's all I was trying to get at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Just curious, can you elaborate on the differences between the two in your personal experiences?

To be honest i don't want to get too close to TOS with this. I will mail you on the other side with my reply to your question where i am more able to be open about the answer.

I would appreciate it. I've never been a parent (and don't intend to be) so I am curious.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 29

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 5:41:09 PM

DavanKael

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Joined: 10/6/2007
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Love, regardless of relational style is, imo, the absolute bestest thing! :>
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 30

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 6:02:22 PM

RainydayNE

Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

In addition, what is more submissive, someone who has all options open to them choosing to submit or someone who fears losing someone doing it only to prevent that loss.

this is a very good point

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 31

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 6:09:55 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

DnD said:
Yup, that is exactly how I feel too. (I really hope you understood my post).

Yup, I was totally with you. I just felt so strongly in agreement that I had to chime in also. By the way, did you ever see my cricket whites? (check profile)

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 32

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 6:51:53 PM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline

Actually I have heard from a lot of dominants that believe that love will ruin a D/s or M/s relationship ...so I run when I hear that

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Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 33

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 10:47:47 PM

robertolapiedra

Posts: 520
Joined: 5/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

It is a common refrain that as a dominant you must be able to "walk away" or that you can't "love your submissive" without losing control in a relationship.

Hello SimplyMichael. In a relationship you can love your submissive without losing control ''in'' a relationship. This is very different from ''controlling the relationship''. No one can control a relationship and expect ''love''. Love is a ''free'' non controllable creature.

A lot of more or less subtle stuff goes on in any dynamic. One may love the person, another may ''love'' the dynamic. There is a difference. If you are in love with a person in a Ds setting only, and not in love with the person for what he or she ''is'', then this type of conditional love will continually be affected (threatened even) by life's normal ups and downs.

If you love the person, the Ds aspect of the relationship is just a comfortable convention. In my personal view of my submissive, I do not care for her because she is submissive, I just care for her. RL.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 34

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 11:36:05 PM

hermione83

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Joined: 8/1/2007
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I am loving by nature, I think everyone should try to love everyone else. I pretty much dislike everyone, which is a negative trait of mine, but to get that out of the way... I can't believe that this is something people think/say. This is why I'm glad to be a Christian, and to just scare everyone away at first by saying I'm *only* seeking a permanent, loving relationship. I've never had anyone who thought it was weak to love me who was a dom, luckily, but I will say, it scares me to death - when I fall in love, and my own vulnerability. And I relish in vulnerability, sort of, too. So I can imagine, for a Dom, it must be even scarier to fall in love.. I don't know. But I give even more when that happens. Sometimes, someone might not return your love. That does give them power. But it's a risk you take. Without it, any relationship is empty. I don't think you can truly dominate or submit without love and being exposed to the other, truly naked... and I think if you have a commited relationship, even the sub should have a little power in the relationship - even if it is 99% to 1%. What fun is it if a sub can't wrap the other around her finger once in a while? ;) If not, the sub feels very insecure. I think it's a sign that a dom is very insecure - if he has to make it the end of a relationship if she disobeys.. Whatever happened to punishment, or disappointing your dom and making you work hard to make up for it :P. On the other hand, I will say that I know one Dom very well - that we might have ended up together.... he had everything I wanted, for a change - but he was very insecure, and PC, and so "Christian" that he was scared to "hurt" me because it was always an internal conflict that he just couldn't unleash. He watered down his feelings and controlled himself far too much for me to be able to get really emotionally involved with him. A dom does have to be cruel to be kind sometimes, and not give into a subs begging, stubbornness, etc. It's not all about the sub submitting. A dom does need to you know, actually dominate and make the sub feel submissive sometimes.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 35

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 11:36:26 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

DnD said:
Yup, that is exactly how I feel too. (I really hope you understood my post).

Yup, I was totally with you. I just felt so strongly in agreement that I had to chime in also. By the way, did you ever see my cricket whites? (check profile)

Yes we did! I thought I had written, but must have been mistaken! Ah, ya rock!

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 36

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/10/2008 11:47:05 PM

Eliana

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/3/2008
Status: offline

I totally agree with you Michael - great post! My Dominant never goes in for that "my way or the highway" kind of emotional terrorism, and I know I wouldn't still be with him now if he did. He knows I would do anything I possibly could for him, so if there are any problems or issues he works with me to find solutions. In fact it is the KINDNESS he so often shows me which I would say is one of the foundations which underpins our relationship - and of course kindness and gentleness is NOT weakness. On the contrary I find it quite frankly in this case - enslaving. It makes me want to please him anymore - but they always said in the old proverb you get more by the carrot than the stick!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 37

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/11/2008 2:01:59 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I think what she meant is people rarely walk around in love with everyone and that doing so can be problematic. There is one thing being loving/caring with others and a whole nother mess "being in love" with whomever you meet.

Whilst I can understand that statement (even if I disagree with it) I don't believe that the rest of her/that post supports the theory.

quote:

No one is by definition loving. Or at least they shouldn't be. They should be by definition dominatin,

If that is what was initially meant, then how can it be exchanged for domination? If people rarely walk around in love or with some sort of love with everyone, then how does domination alter that? How can someone walk around dominating everyone? It just does not make sense. Which is why you need to qualify 'love'with a definition before you can make such a broad statement. Love is one of those words that is purely subjective, not only to individuals, but on a moment to moment basis.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 38

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/11/2008 2:11:02 AM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
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As with all things I do, I use a balance of mind and heart (and intuition). Even in my work as an engineer.
I need to be strict by times...making rules and guarding them....but also listen to people and treat them as people.
I noticed that doing this will give you more respect and the rules making will go eassier too
Same counts for beeing a Dom. You are with a human partner (not counting the blow up dolls) and they have emotions.
You can ignore that....but I guess that won't solve all problems.
Everything has a healthy balance. (and you have to find out what that balance is..from relation to relation)

mm..just posted to no one in particular

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/11/2008 2:12:58 AM >

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 39

RE: Love, fear, and D/s? - 11/11/2008 3:05:41 AM

RealSub58

Posts: 1073
Status: offline

I wasnt gonna open this thread up cause of the "love" word (I open almost all of Michael's now) but after last night I am glad I did. Great topic Michael and I could spend time on all the great points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Making your partner feel safe and secure to me is the most fundamental task in trying to evoke submission from someone. Now before people start spouting "I don't want warm and fuzzy" D/s remember there is still something that makes you feel safe. It might be having someone who is strict with lots of rules and or who is terrifying but whatever it is, it satisfies what you need to feel safe.
I had the opportunity yesterday to see what would happen when a man asked to use me as a "cumslut" without going through my Sir. This guy was an ex and will be in the area. Now I dont mind serving another if my Sir is there and this has been arranged by him. But this ex wanted me to betray my Sir and dicsreetly met him (this is why I left him). When he didn't seem to understand that this was not of my nature, my Sir took the email and "gave it to him." The feeling of safety and protection was so incredibly awesome!

How many threads do we see where a dominant is afraid to show their soft underbelly or even cook breakfast for someone without the fear of being seen as soft and weak. Taking care of your partner is a two way street, the safer each side feel, the more genuine and vulnerable they can be which encourages them to be more caring which starts the cycle all over again, drawing them ever closer in an uplifting spiral of love.

(yes, I am feeling mushy today)

D/s is a 2 way street and Sir made it perfectly clear to me in the very beginning we are partners with his say final.
My Sir explained to this ex that if he had taken more time to "learn me" instead of "using me" he would know who I was. This gave me more insight into my Sir and answers some of the questions I cant frame but only feel. And yes it does encourage the cycle of caring and getting even closer. There was a thread about "s silly dom" and I mused and chuckled a bit.... cause my Sir has a great sense of humor when he turns it on and he has a silly side of himself that I think is endearing and this is the man, tis just who he is. It comes with the package and we are both feeling (I am sure I can say this for him) more vulnerable, which brings us closer. I like it.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 40

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