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If a man, you choose, dominates you, it is because you give him the control, authority and power to do so, not to make you feel submissive.   Isn't it better  to learn about each other before you give your submission?  Making you feel submissive .....   can you make a man dominate you?  Not if he is not a dominant man.

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ORIGINAL: leadership527

Somehow, somewhere, something has gone really really wrong when love is considered a bad thing.

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ORIGINAL: leadership527
The notion of the detached leader has kind of gone by the wayside as an anachronism. 

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ORIGINAL: missturbation

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Are you claiming that there has never been a parent out there who has a hard time with disciplining a child because they love them like dominants have had hard times disciplining submissives because love got in the way?

No i'm not claiming that at all. I'm claiming that the emotion behind punishing your child is different than that of punishing your s type who you are in love with.
 
[

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ORIGINAL: Evility

What is the fundamental difference between a dominant saying "X must occur or the relationship is over" and a submissive saying "X must never occur or the relationship is over"? We see the latter all the time. They are both ultimatums yet the latter is almost universally accepted and by your logic the former should never happen.

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

We've never presented our needs in a fulfilling relationship in an 'or else' manner. There's a big difference between saying "If you ever refuse X, then you're out" and "I need X in a relationship, do you need it also?". The difference here is that if you know what you need, or what you can't live with, you say so first during the very beginning to determine if there is enough compatibility to establish a relationship.

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ORIGINAL: Padriag
As to the question of love, I think a better way of putting it is that you shouldn't love too much.  It was Yeats, that old romantic poet, who also said "Never give all the heart."   He knew of what he spoke.  Love too much, too deeply, too blindly and you become unable to see things as they are and therefore react as you normally should.  There comes a point when a person, who loves too much, becomes addicted to "being in love" and at that point will... like an addict... do anything to maintain the addiction.  Can a dominant love a submissive... a master love a slave... yes... but take care not to love too much.  All things in moderation, as those old Christians used to admonish... good advice that.

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Such a threat should, in fact, probably never be used... if things have reached a point where that becomes a consideration, they've probably reached the point the dominant should simply walk away regardless... with no threat.  Again, I'll emphasize the point that being able to walk away is more about a state of mind on the part of the dominant, rather than a threat used to cajole a submissive into obedience.

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Your second question or point was regarding making a submissive feel safe.  Feeling safe within a relationship does not equate to promising never to leave, or to love unconditionally, etc.  In my experience, "feeling safe" is more about the dominant being stable and reliable, about the submissive knowing that they will not be harmed, and the submissive knowing that they are accepted as they are (even if they know the dominant will require change to who they are).  Remember, submissives in general want boundaries, they want structure, they want rules... these things are all also part of feeling safe for them.  You cannot have boundaries and rules without consequences (if there is no consequence to violating them, then they are meaningless), but that does not mean the only consequence or even the first consequence should be "I'll leave."  Just the opposite, it should be the consequence of last resort... applied when things have gone so badly wrong, it is the only option left... and even then it shouldn't be a threat, if things are that bad then just walk away Dommie... just walk away.

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ORIGINAL: Padriag

I also don't advocate taking an adversarial approach to any relationship, its not a productive frame of mind.  What I find interesting is that many seem to think anyone who says "my way or the highway" is automatically adversarial.  To my mind, it (my way or the highway) is an approach least likely to be adversarial... there is no contest involved... either the submissive accepts my terms or not. 

• Threaten my girl with leaving her if she disobeys
  
• Don't consider both people's wants and needs in my relationship.
  
• Make every decision solely "Me, me, me, me, me"
  
• Am completely obtuse to boundaries/issues/problems that my girl is having.
  
• am unreasonable

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

If the dominant states "if you do not do X, I will walk away" and the submissive doesn't do X" then all the dominant has shown when they walk away is that they were powerless in that relationship. 

I want to address Padriag's insightful post but I have to run and don't have time.  I certainly think that some relationships SHOULD be walked away from.  Violations of certain boundaries and agreements can certainly be just cause for ending a relationship. 

I also think there is a VAST difference between what works in part time relationships and what works with long term primary/life partnerships and I think some of the disagreements stem from that. 

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

We've never presented our needs in a fulfilling relationship in an 'or else' manner. There's a big difference between saying "If you ever refuse X, then you're out" and "I need X in a relationship, do you need it also?". The difference here is that if you know what you need, or what you can't live with, you say so first during the very beginning to determine if there is enough compatibility to establish a relationship.

this concept would work wonderfully if people just flowed along the same path never changing... being exactly how they are tomorrow as they are today when we make that forever decision to be jointed at the hip.  Unfortunately.. people do change for good and bad.  I recall a moment in my parents life that my father was deliver an ultimatum..... he choose to change the direction he was heading.... they have since enjoyed another 20 plus years of marriage as a result of that choice in that given moment and in my moms words.. they have never been happier in their 44-45 years together.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: Padriag
Remember, submissives in general want boundaries, they want structure, they want rules... these things are all also part of feeling safe for them.  You cannot have boundaries and rules without consequences (if there is no consequence to violating them, then they are meaningless), but that does not mean the only consequence or even the first consequence should be "I'll leave."  Just the opposite, it should be the consequence of last resort... applied when things have gone so badly wrong, it is the only option left... and even then it shouldn't be a threat, if things are that bad then just walk away Dommie... just walk away.

just a thought that may or not be relevant....  so often when I hear people talk about being vulnerable.. there seems to be an implied idea that we eliminate boundaries to gain this wonderful vulnerability.  This is only partly true.  In fact, we actually Change our boundaries ... our individual boundaries evolve into relationship boundaries.    Boundaries are healthy... without them.. we don't will not find vulnerability in a relationship.. we will find chaos.  The lack of boundaries hinders our ability to find safety and security in the relationship and thus.. prevents us to find that vulnerability within our relationship dynamic.

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he phrase "My Way or The Highway" doesn't automatically mean

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  It is a common refrain that as a dominant you must be able to "walk away" or that you can't "love your submissive" without losing control in a relationship.

What exactly does that really mean?  Every time I hear that my skin crawls and my mind screams "not no but hell no" but I couldn't quite come up with the words to explain why.  I hear people advising people to ditch their relationships constantly and frankly, some relationships  SHOULD be ditched but far more could be saved if people didn't have such an adversarial viewpoint of relationships.  [/quote

In on-line discussions and debates there seems to be this myth of the perfect dominant or submissive.  The occasional disappointment is to be expected generally but we seldom discuss the concept of forgiveness.  Too often people focus on the problem rather than look for a solution.   I would hope that in real time our friends and partners understand the difference between an honest mistake as opposed to an action meant to deliberately hurt the relationship.  I would hope that as a rule, we do our best to keep the good in our lives.
 
When stated out loud, “my way or the highway” does sound harsh.  But doesn’t everybody have expectations regarding what is or is not acceptable?  Whether D/s, non-D/s, or platonic, we tend to stay in relationships that work for us.  It would seem to me that if the connection is positive there will be some type of emotional bond although that doesn’t necessarily equate to romantic love.  I’m not convinced that a weaker (for lack of a better word) attachment makes it any easier to walk away. 


 
I agree with leadership527;

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Actually, I kind of think it does Mad. Really, as soon as the word "my" came out... it was adversarial. By implication, there is a "my" way and a "her" way which must be aligned. "Our" way or the highway would've been the team formulation of that concept.

the dominant’s authority only works when there is an understanding that ‘’’we” are in this together.  If there has been full discussion and disclosure of expectations, if consent has been given, then “we” are collaborators in fulfillment. 

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just a thought that may or not be relevant....  so often when I hear people talk about being vulnerable.. there seems to be an implied idea that we eliminate boundaries to gain this wonderful vulnerability.  This is only partly true.  In fact, we actually Change our boundaries ... our individual boundaries evolve into relationship boundaries.    Boundaries are healthy... without them.. we don't will not find vulnerability in a relationship.. we will find chaos.  The lack of boundaries hinders our ability to find safety and security in the relationship and thus.. prevents us to find that vulnerability within our relationship dynamic.  

KoM, your thoughts here brought to mind one of my favorite poems by Edward Markham:
          Outwitted
He drew a circle that shut me out---
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and I had the wit to win:
We drew a circle that took him in.



< Message edited by catize -- 11/16/2008 9:27:10 PM >

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to SimplyMichael)