RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 6:58:38 AM)

This bullshit has to stop.

The crux of a healthy economy is that companies are driven to produce goods and service that sell in the marketplace.  In a sick economy, companies produce things that cannot sell, and cannot sustain themselves.

In a downright perverse and stupid economy, you have a sick economy that is perpetuated by a government giving handouts from money it doesn't even really have (deficit, anyone?) to prop up companies that cannot be sustained.  They will continue to not produce anything of value, and the vibrant companies that SHOULD replace them will be unable to compete with their subsidized failing competitors.



meatcleaver -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 7:17:08 AM)

If the US government ends up bailing out the big auto companies and puts up protection barriers, Americans will end up making American style Trabants because there will be no incentive to make anything else.

German workers don't work for peanuts so its possible.

World-class brands including Mercedez-Benz, BMW and Porsche help make Germany the largest economy in Europe with more exports than any other country on the planet.
http://import-export.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_german_exports_imports

You've got to make what people want to be successful. Before globalisation America manufacturers only thought of America as its market and only designed goods for its market while other countries thought of the world as their market.

If you want to buy American style freezers in Europe, you buy Korean American style freezers or even a German one. You would think the natural people to make American style freezers wiould be Americans.

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/american-fridge-freezers.asp



candystripper -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 7:18:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don’t know of the industry in general but I do know of Chrysler in the St Louis area. In 2005 Chrysler threatened to close its plant unless they received tax abatements. Even though the local municipalities were hurting for money at the time they gave in to Chrysler to the tune of millions.

The plant is considered the most modern and productive Chrysler has in the lower 48. As a reward Chrysler has decided this year to close the minivan plant laying off 3,700 workers.

Even this would be understandable considering the economic situation…BUT…  rather than discontinuing production entirely they are transferring the production to a plant in Canada.

Otherwise they are lying off American workers while transferring the work to Canada… then asking The United States for money.

If I had a say I would demand that all manufacturing be transferred back to the US employing US workers before I would give them a penny of our tax money.

Butch


Hey Butch.  My answer is a resounding f**k NO.  While my heart goes out to retirees and workers of the U.S auto manufacturers, it's not like we won't be able to fly or take trains, etc.  It's a lucrative market -- let another company that can *pluck its head out its ass* fill the consumer demand for cars.
 
Man, I am so sorry to see the retirees and workers getting hosed.  Those folks need to begin 'planning for the worst'; they closed a steel mill here in Cleveland in recent years, and the retirees were left with ZERO.
 
candystripper  [sm=pole.gif]



popeye1250 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 7:54:40 AM)

The congress appropriated $34.6B for "foreign aid" last year.
If they don't make loans to the auto industry I don't know how they can justify anymore "foreign aid".
People will be PISSED!



UncleNasty -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 8:00:34 AM)

I feel I should clarify.

A post I made here yesterday contained an anology that was not my own. It was a cut and paste from an article on a website. I thought it a very good analogy so I included it. I usually attribute my sources (which are usually quotes of historical figures) appropriately. This time I failed to do so.

Here is my cut and paste, followed by a link to the full article if any are interested in reading it:

Historically certain types of forests naturally experienced frequent, but small, wildfires. Because their frequency kept deadwood at a minimum, the fires never grew into large conflagrations. However, when government forestry services instituted fire suppression policies, they eliminated most small fires, but caused deadwood and other fuel to accumulate. When at last a fire came that could not be suppressed, it grew into a devastating inferno.

Learning from their errors, forestry services have abandoned fire suppression policies.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article7231.html 

Uncle Nasty




philosophy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:11:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

…you (Canada) are just like a third world country to us… taking food from our children’s mouths.



........riiiight. A third world country with a national health system, that can build cars cheaper than the US, that has a comparable standard of living and doesn't have a human rights record Pinochet would be proud of. Yup, that's third world alright.

Canada's wealth lies in raw materials as much as anything. The USA, by virtue of NAFTA, has cheaper access to those raw materials which knocks on to many aspects of the US economy. Seems to me, KD, you're suggesting that when it comes to the give and take of globalisation you want the USA to be all take and no give. Fine. Then come right out and, like Popeye, argue for pure isolationism. Just don't cry, if you end up with that, when the rest of the world doesn't want to sell you the raw materials you need at a subsidised price. Isolationism is its own reward.



kdsub -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:35:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

…you (Canada) are just like a third world country to us… taking food from our children’s mouths.



........riiiight. A third world country with a national health system, that can build cars cheaper than the US, that has a comparable standard of living and doesn't have a human rights record Pinochet would be proud of. Yup, that's third world alright.

Canada's wealth lies in raw materials as much as anything. The USA, by virtue of NAFTA, has cheaper access to those raw materials which knocks on to many aspects of the US economy. Seems to me, KD, you're suggesting that when it comes to the give and take of globalisation you want the USA to be all take and no give. Fine. Then come right out and, like Popeye, argue for pure isolationism. Just don't cry, if you end up with that, when the rest of the world doesn't want to sell you the raw materials you need at a subsidised price. Isolationism is its own reward.


You like to pick bits and pieces of a discussion but completely ignore the basic premise...is it because you just don't have an answer?

I don't care if Chrysler falls on its face...but I don't want to pay money from my pocket for them to move jobs to Canada. I could care less about globalization that is not the point.

As I asked you before...what would be your view if a Canadian owned company was laying off Canadians.... moving production to another country then asking you to pay them for it.

Third world was a little overboard but the promise is not. The time will come when the cost of business in Canada will make profit greedy corporations move to cheaper labor markets... I'll bet you will be screaming bloody murder if they wanted a hand out from you...Especially if you were one of the thousands that lost their jobs.

Butch



slvemike4u -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:41:32 AM)

Philo,I hear what your saying...and agree with much of it.But it would seem that if American taxpayers don't bail out GM,the company goes under.What happens at that point to those Canadian facilities at that point...they close .
Now if in fact the US tax payer props up GM,should not some protection for US auto workers be put in place?
A further stipulation of any bail out,IMO should be the Auto Workers realising  that there will be a pinch, ...rolled back wages, productivity issues whatever form it takes..but bailing them out and continuing busuness as usual is just a fool's game...and ought not be played with tax payers Dollars.



variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:42:13 AM)

no, the government should not provide aid to anyone.

but they will. why?

I don't feel like typing it all out again: http://www.collarchat.com/m_2273294/tm.htm



LaTigresse -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:46:56 AM)

No. I don't believe in rewarding failure.

I would prefer the US put the money into another industry.



kdsub -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:50:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Philo,I hear what your saying...and agree with much of it.But it would seem that if American taxpayers don't bail out GM,the company goes under.What happens at that point to those Canadian facilities at that point...they close .
Now if in fact the US tax payer props up GM,should not some protection for US auto workers be put in place?
A further stipulation of any bail out,IMO should be the Auto Workers realising  that there will be a pinch, ...rolled back wages, productivity issues whatever form it takes..but bailing them out and continuing busuness as usual is just a fool's game...and ought not be played with tax payers Dollars.


Your much better at making this point then I am...I get too damn mad...lol.. Wouldn't you think Chrysler would approach the union and try to work out a compromise to keep jobs in the area and reduce costs?...From the workers I know that was not the case... It was arbitrary.

Butch



variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:50:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Even this would be understandable considering the economic situation…BUT…  rather than discontinuing production entirely they are transferring the production to a plant in Canada.


well...maybe american unions will learn their lesson and stop being twats.

how many toyota factories are shutting down?



variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:54:12 AM)

things like business failures and bank runs and the like are good things. I don't see why people don't realize this. these institutions are failing because the way they do business is faulty. the risks of losing everything is what keeps people engaging in sound monetary and business practices. continually bailing people out will not solve anything - it will prolong the problem and make it's inevitable demise worse.

these businesses should fail, everyone investing in these businesses should lose money, and the people working for them should have to find jobs (even if they pay a little less) where they aren't working for a bunch of fools.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:55:58 AM)

quote:

continually bailing people out will not solve anything - it will prolong the problem and make it's inevitable demise worse.

Arguably, this is precisely what has happened.



philosophy -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:56:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

…you (Canada) are just like a third world country to us… taking food from our children’s mouths.



quote:


You like to pick bits and pieces of a discussion but completely ignore the basic premise...is it because you just don't have an answer?



....nope. Although i gladly concede that looking at the details in any given post is something i do a lot of. i also address the macro issues from time to time, but they get addressed by the majority of posters.......the devil is in the details.

What we all agree on is that we need to act justly in these matters. i have zero problem with a globalised company approaching multiple governments if they have a problem whose effects crosses borders. Seems sensible to me.
What i do have a problem with is the underlying biases that exist. There are no slips of the tongue, all that happens is that a person inner self may be accidentally revealed. When you refer to Canada as a third world country you reveal a part of yourself. Specifically that part that models the rest of the world....and while Americans continue in the logical fallacy that they lead the world in all things good and proper, that the rest of the world is less important,  then that arrogance will continue to keep biting them on the ass.
i'm actually trying to do you a favour.....in the sense that someone who sees a person about to do something stupid and tries to warn them is doing them a favour.



variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:56:53 AM)

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

send all the elite to  tim buc too, with no money, and no clothes and no possessions.   tell them if they make it back to the US, they will get free housing., food, etc.

thats when we stick them in Alcatraz[/quote]

um...what?



LaTigresse -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 10:59:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Even this would be understandable considering the economic situation…BUT…  rather than discontinuing production entirely they are transferring the production to a plant in Canada.


well...maybe american unions will learn their lesson and stop being twats.

how many toyota factories are shutting down?



Exactly. If people want to start pointing fingers......start pointing at the United Auto Workers Union. Over paid and building shit products.



meatcleaver -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:00:27 AM)

General point.

The US bails out GM etc. What do you do with all the cars nobody wants? No country is going to allow American subsidized cars to be dumped in their home market. If people wanted GM cars in the first place, GM wouldn't have a problem but not even Americans seem to want them. The problem is there are too many cars being produced and not enough buyers even without the financial crisis and GM are failing to attract enough of the buyers necessary.



kdsub -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:00:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Even this would be understandable considering the economic situation…BUT…  rather than discontinuing production entirely they are transferring the production to a plant in Canada.


well...maybe american unions will learn their lesson and stop being twats.

how many toyota factories are shutting down?


In 2007 Chrysler union workers agreed to wage concessions... that really worked for them.

Again I am not defending Chrysler and their products. I just think it is wrong to ask taxpayers to give handouts to companies that are moving jobs out of the country.

If the other countries want to aid Chrysler good for them…but I do not want to subsidize workers in Canada and Mexico.

If there products can’t sell then bye bye…I’m all for it.

Butch



meatcleaver -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:02:58 AM)

When companies move jobs out of the country, some of the profits come back.

Is it me or isn't there that many capitalists in America any more?



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