RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (Full Version)

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variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:04:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's actually simpler than that.

Stop buying things that are made outside the US.

They reason they are....is because you do.



I'll buy what's the cheapest and what's the highest quality. I don't care where it's made.




LaTigresse -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:05:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General point.

The US bails out GM etc. What do you do with all the cars nobody wants? No country is going to allow American subsidized cars to be dumped in their home market. If people wanted GM cars in the first place, GM wouldn't have a problem but not even Americans seem to want them. The problem is there are too many cars being produced and not enough buyers even without the financial crisis and GM are failing to attract enough of the buyers necessary.


They don't sell, do what we do with old cars no one wants. Crush and recycle. Then quit making crap and passing it off as something worthy of me, spending my hard earned money on.

I love driving my Mazda.




variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:06:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

German workers don't work for peanuts so its possible.

World-class brands including Mercedez-Benz, BMW and Porsche help make Germany the largest economy in Europe with more exports than any other country on the planet.
http://import-export.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_german_exports_imports



hm...I wonder what the german workers working the mercedez plant 20 miles north of me in alabama work for...




kdsub -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:08:26 AM)

The thread is not about whether Chrysler or GM is making good cars...or whether workers are overpaid. It is only about giving tax money to a company that moves jobs outside the country for profit.

Exclusively American tax money...where it should be tax money from every nation involved or not at all... Let them go bankrupt but I don't feel it fair I subsidize Canada or Mexican workers

Butch




LaTigresse -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:09:36 AM)

Some don't want them subsidized at all. Period.




meatcleaver -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 11:15:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

German workers don't work for peanuts so its possible.

World-class brands including Mercedez-Benz, BMW and Porsche help make Germany the largest economy in Europe with more exports than any other country on the planet.
http://import-export.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_german_exports_imports



hm...I wonder what the german workers working the mercedez plant 20 miles north of me in alabama work for...


I have no idea, perhaps you can enlighten us. However, it is a factory, not a prison, people can walk out if they want to.




Maya2001 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 12:07:32 PM)

quote:

No you are wrong...I'm not talking about destroying any jobs...Chrysler sent additional production to Canada at American workers expense. Fair is fair...what would be your opinion if Chrysler asked Canada for aid and you had to pay for it...Then transferred Canadian jobs to the US?


Canada has bailed out the chrsyler plant here a number of times  and offered tax free loans  and not just to chrysler , Ford and GM also have been given aid here  ..so don;t assume Canada has not paid there dues as well as watched plants being shut down

and  the goverment here  had just gave out a bunch of money a year ago sept  to keep plants  open and a couple months later they  announced the plant closures  after they had the money in their hands and made contract promises to the workers .. I would jhave much rather see them close first before accepting the money and then running with  it ,, so yeah we feel kind of owed

A lot of areas have been hard hit here too..... what Chrysler is doing is centralizing their operations as there is not enough work to keep 2 minivan plants operational..it is easier for them to move the work here because the unions here are not as powerful  for one , so a worker here has a much lower recovery time  between job cycles  so that means by moving all operations here  they can produce all they need in one plant as the lines can be run faster with less workers , in the US they cannot do that or the plant may not be able to accommodate the volumes ,,, there is the bonus of the health care system here  to they profit by having lower costs,   the other reason they move here is the lower dollar...... Any jobs created would be filled by laid off workers and  still many will not  be recalled ... Chances are Chyslers needs to shut down the plant inorder to overhaul it  to accommodate a small vehicle which means a complete gutting  and then retooling  a process that can take a couple of years  so it may not be a permanent closure but one out of necessity




variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 12:16:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I have no idea, perhaps you can enlighten us. However, it is a factory, not a prison, people can walk out if they want to.


you may have missed the point. mercedes is a good company. they also outsource their labor here to non-union workers. they have no problems being successful but american companies do. perhaps there are a few reasons for why their business model succeeds and ours fail miserably.




kdsub -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 12:38:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

quote:

No you are wrong...I'm not talking about destroying any jobs...Chrysler sent additional production to Canada at American workers expense. Fair is fair...what would be your opinion if Chrysler asked Canada for aid and you had to pay for it...Then transferred Canadian jobs to the US?


Canada has bailed out the chrsyler plant here a number of times  and offered tax free loans  and not just to chrysler , Ford and GM also have been given aid here  ..so don;t assume Canada has not paid there dues as well as watched plants being shut down

and  the goverment here  had just gave out a bunch of money a year ago sept  to keep plants  open and a couple months later they  announced the plant closures  after they had the money in their hands and made contract promises to the workers .. I would jhave much rather see them close first before accepting the money and then running with  it ,, so yeah we feel kind of owed

A lot of areas have been hard hit here too..... what Chrysler is doing is centralizing their operations as there is not enough work to keep 2 minivan plants operational..it is easier for them to move the work here because the unions here are not as powerful  for one , so a worker here has a much lower recovery time  between job cycles  so that means by moving all operations here  they can produce all they need in one plant as the lines can be run faster with less workers , in the US they cannot do that or the plant may not be able to accommodate the volumes ,,, there is the bonus of the health care system here  to they profit by having lower costs,   the other reason they move here is the lower dollar...... Any jobs created would be filled by laid off workers and  still many will not  be recalled ... Chances are Chyslers needs to shut down the plant inorder to overhaul it  to accommodate a small vehicle which means a complete gutting  and then retooling  a process that can take a couple of years  so it may not be a permanent closure but one out of necessity



Hi there

I'm not assuming anything...we have also given them tax breaks...but right now they are asking our government to bail them out not yours. Our money will keep your factories and workers employed. BUT 3,800 local US workers with families that have made concessions in pay are now unemployed. It is not right or fair.




Maya2001 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 12:54:45 PM)

quote:

I'm not assuming anything...we have also given them tax breaks...but right now they are asking our government to bail them out not yours. Our money will keep your factories and workers employed. BUT 3,800 local US workers with families that have made concessions in pay are now unemployed. It is not right or fair.


they did the same thing  here a year ago "AFTER" they accepted  the moneyand promised to keep the work here  and the employees here also took concessions ,,,,so a huge kick in the ass not only for the workers but the taxpayers  whose money got stolen with promises




rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 2:04:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's actually simpler than that.

Stop buying things that are made outside the US.

They reason they are....is because you do.



I'll buy what's the cheapest and what's the highest quality. I don't care where it's made.




high quality and cheap? that's funny. I've never bought anything cheap that was high quality.




variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 2:08:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

high quality and cheap? that's funny. I've never bought anything cheap that was high quality.



oh dear god. do I really have to spell out everything for you people.




rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 2:11:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

high quality and cheap? that's funny. I've never bought anything cheap that was high quality.



oh dear god. do I really have to spell out everything for you people.



sure, why don't you. I enjoy hearing you blather. its like bla bla bla, omg I am so smart, bla bla bla.




ModeratorEleven -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 2:26:03 PM)

Folks, if you can't find it in yourselves to have this discussion without resorting to nonsense like this, please rethink your participation here.  Or I will.

XI





variation30 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 2:53:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

sure, why don't you. I enjoy hearing you blather. its like bla bla bla, omg I am so smart, bla bla bla.



*sigh*

we're dealing with price and quality. you're going to want to most bang for your buck. let's say your budget is 28k for a car. you're going to want to get the highest quality product for your money, correct? if there were a ford selling for 28k and a toyota I thought was of higher quality selling for 25k, I'd buy the toyota, as it was both of a higher quality and a lower cost.

was it really necessary for me to explain that to you?




Maya2001 -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 3:57:48 PM)

variation30  I do agree that the japanese do a better job on quality   I work in a plant that is jointly  owned and seen the difference  with a Japanese head and GM heading up operations  and the concern with quality

but  the cost difference has a different reason

And I have a way to prove it  ...go to  some auto parts store   and ask for the price of a water pump for an american made car similar in size  to your toyota  and then ask the price for the water pump for yours.. most of the parts for the toyota will be 2 to 3 times as much ..the money is made in the sale of service parts. 




rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 4:09:39 PM)

My Mountaineer was 28k in 99. I am still driving it, no mechanical problems other than scheduled maintained. I've had a few friends burn through a toyota, 2 honda's and buick. My old mans ford has 386K miles on it...and it still runs good. Quality. not cheap. 




Naga -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 4:20:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

but the cost difference has a different reason



If I have understood what I have read correctly, a lot of the difference in cost is "legacy" costs on retired workers; health insurance, retirement, unions etc.

The cost of the above adds literally thousands of dollars to the cost of the American car, where with the imports it is measured in hundreds of dollars.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 4:49:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I agree with the argument if they want a handout the other countries they operate in should be part of the handout. I am sick to death of these jackass fuckers getting tax breaks and special treatment, opening things and then shuttering them because its cheaper in canada or mexico or china or whatever bumfuck country is currently offering the most asskissage and slave labor. You want money from me? Fine, then bring every job you've shipped over seas or cross border back here, or you don't get a damn dime. plus, if we do bail your ass out, you're playing by our rules, real mpg testing, an accelerated, crash program into an alternate fuel source vehicle, and possible consoldation with your other compatriots. The globalists who say its only economics can kiss my ass, I am sick of their subsidies to lure american companies. Maybe they should pay the unemployment of the machinsts and other workers out of a job. fuckers. 


It's actually simpler than that.

Stop buying things that are made outside the US.

They reason they are....is because you do.




I buy American made as much as humanly possible. Don't assume because of an angry rant that I don't.



I don't...and I never would.

But unless you're buying little wooden hand carved fire engines....

(You can't).




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? (11/12/2008 5:06:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don’t know of the industry in general but I do know of Chrysler in the St Louis area. In 2005 Chrysler threatened to close its plant unless they received tax abatements. Even though the local municipalities were hurting for money at the time they gave in to Chrysler to the tune of millions.

The plant is considered the most modern and productive Chrysler has in the lower 48. As a reward Chrysler has decided this year to close the minivan plant laying off 3,700 workers.

Even this would be understandable considering the economic situation…BUT…  rather than discontinuing production entirely they are transferring the production to a plant in Canada.

Otherwise they are lying off American workers while transferring the work to Canada… then asking The United States for money.

If I had a say I would demand that all manufacturing be transferred back to the US employing US workers before I would give them a penny of our tax money.

Butch


Hey Butch.  My answer is a resounding f**k NO.  While my heart goes out to retirees and workers of the U.S auto manufacturers, it's not like we won't be able to fly or take trains, etc.  It's a lucrative market -- let another company that can *pluck its head out its ass* fill the consumer demand for cars.
candystripper  [sm=pole.gif]


Well said.

Clearly, Toyota, among others, have proven that cars will sell if built to consumer tastes.

All U.S. car sales are down...some more than others.

It's rather telling that U.S. manufacturers are down more than others.

Isn't it intriguing that U.S. manufacturers have been losing significant share...even when (for 20 years) fuel prices were historically low?

I remember a conversation with a fellow I lived next door to back in 1996, a tried and true...true blue "American".

At the time I owned 22 vehicles (company rigs), 14 of which were "foreign" manufactured (Isuzu...commercial heavy rigs).

He was berating me for not owning "American Built" rigs...and proceeded to explain to me he owned "ONLY American built" trucks.

He owned one...his, a 3/4 ton...Chevy...but I allowed him to make his point, after which I explained to him that my Isuzus were 43% manufactured in the United States...and his Chevy truck (which the facility building them was in Juarez, Mexico) was 24% manufactured in the U.S.

He didn't find that altogether palatable...nevertheless....

Whether you're buying small cars (Canada), big trucks (in many cases, Mexico), saran wrap (China), Tupperware (Mexico), TV's (Japan, North Korea, China) or even Barbeque's (China, South Korea or Venezuela)....

It's impossible to buy American.

Unless of course, you don't want to make a steak, drive to pick one up, watch the news to find out where the best price can be found on a steak (which, by the way, largely comes from Brazil), or even buy some Post it Notes to make a note to yourself "Buy American" (which, by the way...comes from Singapore).

And the pen you'd use to write that post it note?

(It comes from Poland).

And...just as an aside...that laptop or desktop you're reading this on...comes from China.

(And yes...even the ones that say "American built"....those are assembled in American Samoa...parts from China or similar, shipped to American Samoa...so they can claim American manufactured pedigrees...it's a legal distinction).




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