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RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 6:25:15 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Either way....I'm betting somehow Obama manages to pull this off in Dec......




(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 6:39:06 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"The constitutionality of state laws punishing electors for actually casting a faithless vote, rather than refusing to pledge, has never been decided by the Supreme Court. While many states may only punish a faithless elector after-the-fact, some such as Michigan specify that his or her vote shall be cancelled.[23]"

I knew that and I think I have mentioned it before. And it is only 24 states.

T

(in reply to BlackPhx)
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RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 6:41:30 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If it weren’t for the college and we went strictly by popular vote the voters of states like Utah and Montana would have no say in the election.

Butch

In reality they have little or no say now.  This year, North Carolina, Missouri, Indiana, and Montana had no say in the election, since it had already been effectively decided by the time Ohio was called for Obama.  This year, your vote in Missouri had no effect at all.  None.  It's rare that a small population state makes a difference in the outcome.

OTOH, with popular vote deciding an election, every person's vote counts, even a Democrat in reddest Tennessee or Idaho, or a Republican in bluest New York or California.  Elections would not be called until votes are counted in California, Oregon, and Washington, and possibly from Alaska and Hawaii.  With the electoral system, the moment the polls close on the West Coast, the networks call it before a single precinct's totals are in, since they know those states will go blue, and they can safely project a winner (Republican or Democrat).

If the popular vote total were close, a small population state's votes could potentially make a difference in the outcome, since state boundaries wouldn't matter, only each person's vote.

On top of that, with the electoral system, a single voter in Wyoming or Idaho has greater influence on the electoral vote total than your vote in Missouri or mine in Georgia (since they have disproportionately more electoral votes).  Is that really OK with you?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 6:46:14 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Actually with McCains conceding the election Obama is still the President elect via Popular vote as well as Electoral Seats won.

poenkitten


A candidate's concession means nothing to the election process; it's just a courtesy, a formality--it's neither required by the losing candidate nor binding on the final result. 

Same for popular vote--it does not make anyone the President-elect under our current system.  (Gore won the popular vote in 2000; that has not changed)

The only thing that counts is getting over 270 electoral votes.


(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 6:47:34 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		The electoral college system is outdated and patronising: they should do away with it completely. If 'the real America' is frightened that inner-city areas pinko communists will have a disproportionate amount of clout come election time... let it move over to the urban sprawls so that it can cast its votes appropriately in favour of  God and country when the time comes  .

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(in reply to Cagey18)
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RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 6:58:30 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		I believe that is the first time I have ever heard that particular suggestion Kittin,imagine the ramifications of "real America" mixing with the not so real America....anarchy could ensue.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not been elected President o... - 11/11/2008 7:08:37 PM   
browndomme


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/10/2008
Status: offline 		None of the other presidents have had their citizenship questioned so why Obama... I find this a lil ironic

< Message edited by browndomme -- 11/11/2008 7:09:02 PM >

(in reply to painpup)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 7:16:04 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
I believe that is the first time I have ever heard that particular suggestion Kittin,imagine the ramifications of "real America" mixing with the not so real America....anarchy could ensue.


Finally, a little folly in the land of the conventional! Yay!

_____________________________



(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not been elected President o... - 11/11/2008 7:19:34 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Now I want to see Obama's birth certificate to prove he attained the age of thirty five years. If you are going to scrutinize someone, well do  it all the way dammit !

T

(in reply to browndomme)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 7:26:40 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If it weren’t for the college and we went strictly by popular vote the voters of states like Utah and Montana would have no say in the election.

Butch

In reality they have little or no say now.  This year, North Carolina, Missouri, Indiana, and Montana had no say in the election, since it had already been effectively decided by the time Ohio was called for Obama.  This year, your vote in Missouri had no effect at all.  None.  It's rare that a small population state makes a difference in the outcome.

OTOH, with popular vote deciding an election, every person's vote counts, even a Democrat in reddest Tennessee or Idaho, or a Republican in bluest New York or California.  Elections would not be called until votes are counted in California, Oregon, and Washington, and possibly from Alaska and Hawaii.  With the electoral system, the moment the polls close on the West Coast, the networks call it before a single precinct's totals are in, since they know those states will go blue, and they can safely project a winner (Republican or Democrat).

If the popular vote total were close, a small population state's votes could potentially make a difference in the outcome, since state boundaries wouldn't matter, only each person's vote.

On top of that, with the electoral system, a single voter in Wyoming or Idaho has greater influence on the electoral vote total than your vote in Missouri or mine in Georgia (since they have disproportionately more electoral votes).  Is that really OK with you?



If the popular vote were used then the east and west coast would ALWAYS decide the Presidency. That would or could eventually lead to rebellion for lack of representation.  Remember the needs and wants of small town and country America are quite different then the population centers of our nation.

With the Electoral College SOME of the smaller states are needed to win because of the formula used in favoring small population states.

This system is a very good idea and shows the wisdom of our forefathers.

Butch

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 7:39:52 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If the popular vote were used then the east and west coast would ALWAYS decide the Presidency.

Not at all.  Every vote would be equal under a popular vote system, and state boundaries (and "east and west coast") would no longer matter.  Did you completely miss what I said about Democrats in Idaho and Republicans in California?  Right now those votes are wasted, useless, under the current winner-take-all system.

I also noticed you failed to address my question about a Wyoming or Idaho voter's vote counting more than yours.  Is that really OK with you?

And are you OK that your Missouri vote was not even counted this year towards electing the President?  No matter who you voted for, it didn't count.  Neither did votes in North Carolina, Missouri, Indiana, or Montana. 

Under a popular-vote system, that would not be the case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

With the Electoral College SOME of the smaller states are needed to win because of the formula used in favoring small population states.


You could not be more wrong.  If one ticket were to take California (55 votes), Texas (34), New York (31), Florida (27), Illinois (21), Pennsylvania (21), Ohio (20), Michigan (17), Georgia (15), New Jersey (15), and North Carolina (15), that ticket would have 271 votes, which would be enough to win.  No smaller states needed there.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 7:45:17 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"shows the wisdom of our forefathers"

Nope, that is not the way it was originally.

T

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 7:53:39 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

Not at all.  Every vote would be equal under a popular vote system, and state boundaries (and "east and west coast") would no longer matter.  Did you completely miss what I said about Democrats in Idaho and Republicans in California?  Right now those votes are wasted, useless, under the current winner-take-all system.

That is the point...vast areas of this land would be totally without meaningful representation...that is what would happen without the formula. Like I said the needs of urban and country are different but one has many more voters... There needs to be a way to equalize the representation.

quote:


I also noticed you failed to address my question about a Wyoming or Idaho voter's vote counting more than yours.  Is that really OK with you?


Yes...because there are more of me in my area. AND if someday in the future I move to Idaho I would realistically want to have something to say in the Presidential election of a candidate that would then need to represent the wants and needs of my state to get elected. As I say my needs will be different then New York for instance.

quote:


You could not be more wrong.  If one ticket were to take California (55 votes), Texas (34), New York (31), Florida (27), Illinois (21), Pennsylvania (21), Ohio (20), Michigan (17), Georgia (15), New Jersey (15), and North Carolina (15), that ticket would have 271 votes, which would be enough to win.  No smaller states needed there.


I could come up with many different combinations of electoral votes where a small state could make all the difference.

Butch

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 7:55:57 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"shows the wisdom of our forefathers"

Nope, that is not the way it was originally.

T

You're replying to me, but "shows the wisdom" were not my words. 

So "that" above means...?

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not been elected President o... - 11/11/2008 8:01:23 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: browndomme

None of the other presidents have had their citizenship questioned so why Obama... I find this a lil ironic

Actually McCain's citizenship was questioned more seriously than Obama's

(more accurately, McCain being a "natural-born citizen" (due to him being born in the Panama Canal Zone), as required by the Constitution.  For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a U.S. citizen, but he is not natural-born, and thus ineligible to run for President)

to the extent that a resolution was passed in Congress recognizing McCain as natural-born and eligible for the Presidency, since neither Hillary nor Obama wanted to make a big deal about it.

No such resolution needed for Hillary or Obama.


(in reply to browndomme)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 8:15:47 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That is the point...vast areas of this land would be totally without meaningful representation...that is what would happen without the formula.

Land doesn't vote, people do.  Under the current system, vast numbers of voters are totally without meaningful representation due to the state they happen to reside in. 
Apparently that's perfectly fine with you.

quote:


quote:


I also noticed you failed to address my question about a Wyoming or Idaho voter's vote counting more than yours.  Is that really OK with you?

Yes...because there are more of me in my area. AND if someday in the future I move to Idaho I would realistically want to have something to say in the Presidential election of a candidate

And if you vote Democratic in Idaho, you realistically have nothing to say in the Presidential election.  No say at all.  None.
Apparently that's perfectly fine with you as well.

quote:


quote:


You could not be more wrong.  If one ticket were to take California (55 votes), Texas (34), New York (31), Florida (27), Illinois (21), Pennsylvania (21), Ohio (20), Michigan (17), Georgia (15), New Jersey (15), and North Carolina (15), that ticket would have 271 votes, which would be enough to win.  No smaller states needed there.

I could come up with many different combinations of electoral votes where a small state could make all the difference.



You're missing the point.  You said "those small states are needed to win" (they aren't), not that they could be a factor.  Make up your mind what you want to say.

Under the popular-vote system, all states would be a factor, large and small.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 8:54:17 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I'm saying the same thing all along the formula makes it possible for those small states to be a factor... and have importance..and importance means representation to get votes.

Land does have a meaning even if you can't understand it...urban can't do without country...country does not have the population to give weight to the importance of their needs without a formula. There needs to be a balance or there will be discourse.

This realization was the genius of our founding fathers.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/11/2008 8:56:11 PM >

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 9:16:40 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm saying the same thing all along the formula makes it possible for those small states to be a factor... and have importance..and importance means representation to get votes.

So you've backed off on the silly "small states are needed to win" claim then.  Got it.

And yet you again missed my point that voters in small states (and large) are always a factor under the popular-vote system, instead of just sometimes under the electoral-vote system.

quote:


Land does have a meaning even if you can't understand it...urban can't do without country...country does not have the population to give weight to the importance of their needs without a formula. There needs to be a balance or there will be discourse.

And yet land still doesn't vote.  Since we're talking about elections here, anything other than votes is meaningless.

Since you didn't address them, I'll reiterate what is apparently perfectly fine with you:

Under the current system, vast numbers of voters are totally without meaningful representation due to the state they happen to reside in.  If you vote Democratic in Idaho or Tennessee (or Republican in California or New York), you have no say in the Presidential election. None.

Under the current system, your Missouri vote was not even counted this year towards electing the President.  No matter who you voted for, it didn't count.  Neither did votes in North Carolina, Indiana, or Montana. 

At best that's sad.  At worst it's unjust.



(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 9:45:48 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Just as an example in 2004 ...say Colorado, Utah , and Idaho had gone for Kerry instead of Bush the election would have went the other way...Bush knew it and campaigned hard in these low population states that you think make no difference..so yes they were needed... there are many combinations of small states that could have made the difference. To say any state in a presidential campaign is not important is ridiculous.

I get your point you are just wrong.. no sense in me explaining it to you again...you are too close minded. Popular vote will not properly balance heavy density population center rights against low density country rights.

So I guess it is up to others to decide who has merit.

Butch

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Crushing news--- Obama not elected President of the... - 11/11/2008 9:58:36 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just as an example in 2004 ...say Colorado, Utah , and Idaho had gone for Kerry instead of Bush the election would have went the other way...Bush knew it and campaigned hard in these low population states that you think make no difference..so yes they were needed...

And if Ohio had gone for Kerry, then Colorado, Utah , and Idaho wouldn't be "needed".  Wrong again.

quote:


I get your point you are just wrong.


Which points of mine are you claiming are wrong? (points I actually made that is, not points you think I made)


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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