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RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 9:59:36 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
If the deer is farther away than that I just don't shoot. I'm sure your ethics require the same restraint for yourself.

Thank you Archer. Yes, there is a lot more to it than load, aim and shoot. I know my environments well and I choose my arms accordingly. My SKS, as I mentioned before, is not my first choice but it does serve a purpose. I primarily use it in poor weather conditions. My favorite choices, believe it or not, are my 20 guage single shot (rifled slug barrel), my trusty old 12 guage pump or my Remington Model 7 308. The shotguns because there are many areas here where you are not allowed to use rifles due to the close proximity of dwellings. I like the 20 guage and the 308 because of their size, they are just easier to get through brushy areas with. Also, being 5ft 2 myself...their size just makes them very comfortable for me. And you are absolutely right.....I would never take a shot at a deer out of my range, I don't care how tempting. Actually, I probably err far on the side of caution on that one.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 321

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:05:23 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

CL a question if I might,have you ever registered a gun,applied for a license,suffered a waiting period.Or rather have you bought all your weapons in a dark alley from some right wing militia wacko.If the former rather than the latter...than I submit you have allready ceded the very authority you claim the government does not possess.How do you rationalise these conflicting facts..

I cede nothing. I merely acknowledge the wisdom of protesting government excess from outside a prison cell than within it.

There mere fact that government possesses the power to incarcerate and oppress does not imbue them with preturnatural moral superiority. Again, your reasoning can be used to endorse government injustices going back to the Alien and Sedition Acts.

_____________________________

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 322

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:08:17 AM

Outlaw85

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And once again the argument for gun control is made,and in a most compelling way,by those opposed to same.That was some rant Outlaw,I for one thank you for it."didn't lack critical thinking entirely"...please do all of us a favor ,re-read you post while applying,if possible,some of that critical thinking you accuse others of lacking.Sadly in your case I don't believe this exercise will bear any fruit....
CL a question if I might,have you ever registered a gun,applied for a license,suffered a waiting period.Or rather have you bought all your weapons in a dark alley from some right wing militia wacko.If the former rather than the latter...than I submit you have allready ceded the very authority you claim the government does not possess.How do you rationalise these conflicting facts..

have you ever been shot at? Stabbed at? outnumberd? lived in the ghetto at all? Been a victem of violent crime at all? Know anything about what you're talking about? I have. I've experienced first hand evidence, on multiple occasions of the nessesity for armed citizens. I agree with you fully on the whole point of machine guns and chemical weapons and so on and so forth. No need for them. Simple firearms are all that's needed.

I buy my guns legally. And i have no concerns about that changing in the near future. The democrats aren't ever going to ban guns. It isn't going to happen. It would have the exact opposite effect on society that you want. People like you live in a dream world.

I'm far from a right wing extremist militia person if that's what you're implying. I have a lot of left wing attitudes on a lot of subjects. International Diplomacy, for example, and the dire need for the education system in this country to be overhauled. It's outragous that we spend trillions of dollars over seas every year and less in education than nintendo invests in research and development. If but a tiny fraction of the money spent over seas was spent here on improving the education system you would see an exponential change in crime rates, and therefore the gun crime rates.

Education is the biggest problem in our society, I'm sure of it.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 323

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:08:42 AM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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philosophy the standard I would tend to see as reasonable is a weapon that is an individual weapon. ie it does not require a crew to serve/ employ it.
The thing is all these anti gun crowd exagerated what if they want a nuke or a tank arguments have long since been handled by the Gun Control Act of 1968. Which already band explosive ordinance and fully automatic weapons from civilian ownership except under special permits.
Any weapon that fires more than one bullet with a single operation of the trigger (even if it is by malfunction) is by law a Class III weapon, and as such is tightly regulated at the federal level and has been that way for 40 years now.

My frustration level is with those folks who know nothing more about firearms than what you would see on TV or in an action movie. They want things banned that have already been banned or regulated. They fall for the propaganda of renaming guns with a scarey name, and then without the full information want to allow bans on those guns, not knowing that they have fallen for a bait and switch. Baited in with fear of machinguns on the streets and switch to semi automatic weapons in the new proposed law.

(in reply to toledotpeslave)

Post #: 324

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:11:15 AM

Outlaw85

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

There mere fact that government possesses the power to incarcerate and oppress does not imbue them with preturnatural moral superiority. Again, your reasoning can be used to endorse government injustices going back to the Alien and Sedition Acts.

again, put so very eloquently.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 325

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:16:01 AM

MadRabbit

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Joined: 8/9/2006
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There is a lot of good arguments and I am all about the public having basic firearms, Outlaw. You make some good points about the basic need to protect and the illusion of safety which I totally agree with.

However, it's important to note the context which some people are argueing "the right to bear arms" which is the right to bear all arms including biological and chemical weapons. That's the context philosophy and myself have been argueing against.

Personally, my jaw is half open reading such posts

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Outlaw85)

Post #: 326

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:20:39 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedreality

I am so sick of people's irrational fears becoming law. There are more gun owners in the US, than there are doctors. Yet medical malpractice kills more people than guns.

Myself, I'm kind of sick of irrational statements made by people who want me to believe them without providing any proof.

I'll even make it easy and ignore the rest of your post, but how about providing some facts to substantiate this claim.

You really should take a moment and look it up. It's quite amazing and it only took me just a minute or two myself. Careful though....you really might end up being in favor of a ban on hospitals after you research it. They seem to cause far more deaths than guns.

I'm well aware of it. The first was a 1999 study by the Institute of Medicine which attributed 98,000 deaths per year to malpractice. Just five years later the first-ever Health Grades Patient Safety Survey nearly doubled this number to 195,000.

Do you really believe that in five years the number of malpractice deaths would have doubled or is it the criteria used in the studies?

In fact, both studies have been widely criticized and those criticisms have been reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

"Some researchers questioned the accuracy of the 1999 IOM study, reporting both significant subjectivity in determining which deaths were "avoidable" or due to medical error and an erroneous assumption that 100% of patients would have survived if optimal care had been provided. A 2001 study in JAMA estimated that only 1 in 10,000 patients admitted to the hospital would have lived for 3 months or more had "optimal" care been provided."
(Hayward R, Hofer T (2001). "Estimating hospital deaths due to medical errors: preventability is in the eye of the reviewer". JAMA 286 (4): 415–20.)

The point being causation and criteria and that there is no clear standard to say whether medical malpractice deaths
are as few as 1000 per year or a many as 195,000.

There is no such disagreement about causation in gun deaths. You get hit with a bullet and die it's pretty clear the cause was a gun, which happens over 30,000 times each year, on average.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/13/2008 10:23:45 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 327

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:23:08 AM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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Mad Rabbit the point is that such ownership is already banned and to change that would require either a Supreem Court decision or a new law being passed allowing the general public to possess WMD's or crew served weapons. Such OTT proposals have no real chance of happening. The idea of nbanning semi automatic rifles and pistols that are not machineguns and are not significantly more dangerous than some guns they did not ban has already happened. The 1994 Ban.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 328

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:23:47 AM

Outlaw85

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

There is a lot of good arguments and I am all about the public having basic firearms, Outlaw. You make some good points about the basic need to protect and the illusion of safety which I totally agree with.

However, it's important to note the context which some people are argueing "the right to bear arms" which is the right to bear all arms including biological and chemical weapons. That's the context philosophy and myself have been argueing against.

Personally, my jaw is half open reading such posts

yes I too find it rather amusing that tear gas grenades are readily available on the internet without any kind of registration or background checks required. OC spray is one thing, CS gas is a lil wonky, am quie surprized that I have not seen cs gas employed in robberies and such. And until it is I suppose no one will even think of the fact that it's available. At least for the most part it's not deadly, sure would give you an advantage in a military engagement though. o.o

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 329

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:27:37 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

You are kidding right?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 330

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:30:16 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

Stupid guns firing themselves...

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 331

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 10:46:04 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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Outlaw how do I respond to a post that leans so heavily on skewed logic.Do you wonder why you have been at the center of some many violent incidents...I do.Does the fact that you ,as a citizen of these U.S. have been so often in dire peril of loss of life or limb.Has it ever occurred to you that the very culture you defend is a contributing factor in your so frequently being at risk.No,your answer is to arm yourself...which brings us back to CL's assertion that a well armed populace is a more polite populace....this would not,from outlaw's experience survive the stink test.An earlier poster(perhaps outlaw?) suggested it levels the playing field....no need to fear the bully when all are armed...Patently ridiculous...all it does is shift the decider in such contests to who is better armed.
By the way,I grew up in New York,and if I need to put a finer point on it Outlaw ,3 out of 4 yes's in answer to your questions.But to be fair and so as to avoid painting a bad picture of New York I freely admit I was involved in certain activities that tend to expose oneself to the seedier aspects of life.Then I grew up and found these things don't happen to people nearly as much...with the simple expedient of removing oneself from the gutter.Outlaw you made a shitload of assumptions when responding to Philosophy...and continued that when responding to me.In my case at least you couldn't have been more off....Philo can speak for himself,but that whole absence of critical thinking thing...well I'm laughing my ass off on that one.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 332

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:09:38 AM

Outlaw85

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline

I am in full agreement with you that it's the culture that's the problem, with the education system being a major contributing factor.

I can understand your point of view, but I do not believe the culture is going to change any time soon. Therefore, it's best to be armed.   That and I just really do not trust this government.   How can you trust a legal system that can put an 18 year old in prison for 3 years and labled him a sex offender for having consensual sex with his 17 year old girlfriend on his 18th birthday.   And how can you have faith in the redemption of a culture that stood by like cowards and allowed it to happen?   And of course that's just one example of the many injustices in the world.

I for one, have no faith or trust in the system, I'm loyal to it only so far as it respects my own soverignity, and the minute it crosses that line is the minute I absolve myself of any responsibilty or loyalty to the government and will treat it with the same contempt I treat common thugs.    Fortunately, I'm armed, therefore I'm rather sure that the government will in fact, respect my soverignity, or I will sell my life very dearly, and that common thugs will pay a very dear price if they present themselves as a threat again.

And while I have very limited faith in the system, I have more faith in the good will of people, if they were to only take responsibility. And that's the problem they don't. They used to, but they don't. It's not a matter of who is better armed, it's a matter of weather or not the neighbors are going to allow the bully to get away with what he's doing and there's more good people than bad people. Unfortunately, I do have to conceed that in this modern age, the majority are cowards and lack the basic principles upon which this nation was founded. Thats why it took 3 planes ramming into buildings before the americans on the 4th plane did something about it. The very fact that 40 people can be so afraid of 4 with box cutters and wouldn't have the integrity to risk their lives on the principle that it is beneath them to submit to such filth, fills me with contempt for this society.

Now a century ago, people took much more responsibility for their own protection and the protection of hteir neighbors, they looked out for one another, and if someone did someone else wrong, the whole community would come together to bring the person to justice.   We don't have that any more, and that is why gun crime is so prevolent.

And while I can respect your ideas, I don't see them as plausable.   You don't seem to grasp the part where disarming the population isn't a possibility.   Even if the government tried, it wouldn't work.   There would still be gun crime.   This country isn't like other countries.    You were born in this country a century or two too early and I was born in this country a century or two too late.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 333

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:10:14 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

You are kidding right?

Well that was an intelligent and informed response.

Anything you care to add to that, or should I just say I'm wrong, pack up my bags and go home considering you've made such a persuasive counter-argument.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 334

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:11:31 AM

philosophy

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Joined: 2/15/2004
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FR

....rather than do a lot of quoting i shall try to answer a number of points generically.

First, let me outline my own position. i am not against the private ownership of firearms. What i have been responding to on this thread is the idea that such ownership is essential in order to guard against state sponsered violence against its own citizenry, specifically the idea that if the state has access to a weapon system then so should the public. It's a very, very specific point.
i believe that gun ownership in the USA is a cultural artefact. Part of the identity of that country. To attempt to take that away is, in my view, on a par with preventing Sikhs wearing turbans. Therefore, as a committed multi-culturalist, wrong in my view.

The difficulty comes when that ownership is justified by referring to the idea i outlined above, ie if the US government has a weapon system (nb, this doesn't just mean guns, it means all weapon systems) then so should the citizenry. For me, that principle runs into a wall. CL tries to suggest that peer pressure worked at Columbine. Well, in a Darwinian sense perhaps it did. In the sense that a community that failed to police its neighbours got what it deserved. A harsh assesment, one i don't share, but it is a consistent position and ought to be respected as such. i think even CL though would accept that neighbours are geographically defined. Imagine two towns, 15 miles apart. In one town the citizenry, via a strong community spirit, keep their eyes on their neighbours. Lending a helping hand where needed, preventing situations getting out of hand where necessary. In the other town this has, for whatever reason, broken down. Now, if town B suffers a shooting spree then those who might have prevented it are the ones affected. However, if we follow the logic of weapon ownership as outlined above, if someone in town B lets off a back-yard nuke, then town A is also affected. Not to mention towns C, D, E, F and G. Those towns can not be held responsible for what happens in town B. However, they suffer if we remove all restrictions from weapon system ownership. That, it appears to me is clearly unjust.......and arguably irresponsible.
Therefore, i conclude that the principle of wholly unfettered weapon system ownership is flawed in practise.

It is one thing to describe a principle and suggest we should follow it to its bitter end, i'd argue that a certain amount of pragmatism is necessary to turn mere principle into justice.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 335

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:24:41 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Outlaw ,while recognising the attempt to temper your previous post's and stating that you understand my position....you than veered off into a totally IMO unjustified attack on certain victims of 9/11.Pretty easy to criticize their inaction from one's living room.Were these people in posession of all the facts...did they know,how could they know what the ultimate aim of those lunatics were.How dare you attack ,from the safe perspective of hindsight,those people.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 336

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:27:02 AM

Outlaw85

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline

I agree with you as far as nukes and all that go.   machine guns etc.

however, weapons do play a role in preventing the government from overstepping it's bounds.   Don't forget how this country was founded, or many others.

Of course there is also a lot of examples of armed populations having their governments turn on them. Saddam Husien for example, held his nation hostage for decades.    His population accepted the tyrrany though and therefore in my logic they deserved it.      I think that the United States will eventually go down a similar path because people no longer possess the integrity to stand up for themselves and their neighbors and beliefs the way they used to.    But the origional idea was to maintain an armed population to protect yourself and your neighbor from threats, and to act as a counter balance to government power, that was the original idea. And it was based off their experiences in europe with kings and with their own British government.

basically what I said before.

A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden,
and the sheep are armed.
Federal Government: The means by which the sheep will be fooled into
voting for a Democracy.
Freedom: Two very hungry wolves looking for dinner and finding a very
well-informed and well-armed sheep.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 337

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:29:58 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Those towns can not be held responsible for what happens in town B.

Care to explain why not?

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Post #: 338

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:32:35 AM

Outlaw85

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Outlaw ,while recognising the attempt to temper your previous post's and stating that you understand my position....you than veered off into a totally IMO unjustified attack on certain victims of 9/11.Pretty easy to criticize their inaction from one's living room.Were these people in posession of all the facts...did they know,how could they know what the ultimate aim of those lunatics were.How dare you attack ,from the safe perspective of hindsight,those people.

Because I got pistol whipped and got my arm broken backwards doing the right thing and standing up for myself and my neighbors when I was unarmed, knowing full well that was the likely result. It's called principle. It's something that has been ingrained in our society for the past two decades. Be passive, just give him the money, just do what the terrorist tells you to do. We're trained to do that from the beginning, instead of being willing to die on the very principle that it's beneath you to submit to those people. It's called cowardice.

That is my belief, and while i recognize that to most it's a very strong and hard line belief that many would consider extremism. But I back it up with the scars on my own body. If you submit to the enemy, you deserve what they do to you.

To that end, I also joined the army in 2003 at the age of 18. Not that I'm some kind of hero, to my misfortune I was medically discharged for a blood clot in my right leg, something of an insult to me, but the point is I back up what I say with example.aaaaaaaaa

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 339

RE: Gun Sales Up Since Obama Election Victory - 11/13/2008 11:39:00 AM

philosophy

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Joined: 2/15/2004
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......well, i've had a swift struggle here as i wonder whether my reply will be seen as too much of a hijack, but have comcluded that this is one of those meandering threads, so hopefully people will be forebearing..........

....i think there is a presumption that the best weapon against a government is, well, weaponry. i wonder whether that is still true. Thatcher in the UK tried to bring in an incredibly unpopular tax...the poll tax. Arguably it was a direct attack on the citizenry. It was defeated, not at the point of a gun, but by people taking to the streets and waving placards at it. Lots of placards. It became clear to the men in suits behind the scenes that it was so unpopular, so provocative, that the party in power would lose the next election because of it.....so Thatcher had to go.
You see, i think that the point at which any citizenry in a western democracy has to bear arms against a government is the end of a road.......a road that has many other battlegrounds on it that are fought with less, er, weaponised weapons. In many situations the pen is mightier than the sword. Not all situations, but a lot of them. We've all heard the phrase bringing a knife to a gunfight. However, bringing a gun to a debate is just as silly..........
i tend to agree with the idea that western democracies are in a sort of transition. Away from a point where violence is the usual way of settling questions and towards something less bloody.
Where we are on that road is debatable, but i think the general direction of that road isn't in doubt.

(in reply to Outlaw85)

Post #: 340

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