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God on Trial - 11/11/2008 10:30:17 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		Did anyone watch the PBS Masterpiece Show "God on Trial"? Very Powerful.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/11/2008 10:53:22 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		Does anyone agree with the outcome of the trial? The Holocaust was a breach of contract?

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RE: God on Trial - 11/11/2008 10:56:39 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		I've seen it.

God was the wrong defendent; it should have been human (fantasy) on trial.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 2:44:57 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I've seen it (BBC I think?), and I think I'd go with the verdict that God is a ruthless serial killer who happened to have chosen another people through which to commit his atrocities and abandoned his former adoptees - hence breach of contract according to the covenant.

Although the (French?) scientist in the hut made a more useful point in attempting to discard all notions of the Jewish God - after all, if no Jewish God then no Christianity and no reason for Jews to be singled out for anything at all - they'd just be one more foreign people with nothing to distinguish them from any other in European eyes.

Also on that subject, there was a BBC Radio4 programme Monday before last about the history of Bergen Belsen and those liberated; a British army officer wrote to his superiors of his frustration at the former inmates at refusing to go back to their home countries, insisting instead they were a people in themselves and should go to their home in Palestine. To paraphrase "how can we regard them as a people like this, and how can they insist upon it, when by this same thinking on the part of the nazis, they were treated so awfully?" It was also mentioned how one family from Poland went home - only to be murdered as undesirables the locals thought they had gotten rid of.

The kicker must have been the end of the programme though - the guy who had taken part in all the nazi oppression only to be sent to the camp on the discovery that his grandparent had been Jewish. I think his view was the only one possible in such dreadful circumstances - that the nazis had taken everything from them, material and psychological, and the only thing they had left was their identity; that they would soon all be dead and they shouldnt now abandon that thing for which they had been targeted but instead take it proudly with them.

E

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 3:00:37 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Did anyone watch the PBS Masterpiece Show "God on Trial"? Very Powerful.


I saw it. I think it was the human imagination that was on trial since god is a figment of the human imagination. I suppose you have to believe in god to put him on trail and if you are willing to believe in a god invented by a stone age tribe, then you are asking for trouble. Actually, from what I undrstand, originally Yahweh (or whatever) only had power over certain land and didn't have power over anything beyond that land. I am sure I read once about a Jewish diplomatic taking barrow loads of earth to Babylon so he could spread it on the ground and pray on it so his prays had some power. Maybe I'm getting mixed up as it was sometime ago I read what I was thinking of.

If god does exist, there is ample enough evidence that god is a sadistic, paranoid schitzophrenic with a multiple personality disorder and a serious dose of meglamania. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/12/2008 3:01:16 AM >

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 5:19:20 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If god does exist, there is ample enough evidence that god is a sadistic, paranoid schitzophrenic with a multiple personality disorder and a serious dose of meglamania. 


I disagree. God could be well above our human preocupations. Why assume God is necessarily a creator who's responsible for his creation and who we have to answer to? I imagine God would be far detached from the contingencies of life.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 5:22:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If god does exist, there is ample enough evidence that god is a sadistic, paranoid schitzophrenic with a multiple personality disorder and a serious dose of meglamania. 


I disagree. God could be well above our human preocupations. Why assume God is necessarily a creator who's responsible for his creation and who we have to answer to? I imagine God would be far detached from the contingencies of life.


OK. If god exists, he is indifferent, I can accept that. That makes god marginally better than how I discribed him above. At least he isn't interfering.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 5:24:52 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Did anyone watch the PBS Masterpiece Show "God on Trial"? Very Powerful.


i try to avoid religous programming


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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 9:04:09 AM   
cpK69


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I looked up the show and started watching it; very interesting. Unfortunately I need some sleep, so will have to finish it later.
 
I already know what my verdict is, but look forward to hearing the arguments on both sides.
 
Thanks for the heads-up.
 
Kim

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 9:41:23 AM   
MadRabbit


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Status: offline 		 I missed it, but he should be on trial.

He's been silent for a few thousand years, allowing every numbnut with a picture of his face in a blueberry muffin to speak for him and bring endless war, persecution, and hysteria.

Are those the actions of a responsible parent? Leaving his kids unattended in the house so they can run rampant with no clear sense of direction and discipline?

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 10:39:20 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Can a bee keeper protect every single bee from harm?
Does a bee keeper care about the actions or inaction of every single bee?
A bee keeper only cares about the product.
Think of God as a bee keeper and then ask yourself what the product is?

Many models of God exist this is just one, God man be a Sheep farmer.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/12/2008 10:41:14 AM >

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 10:53:50 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Status: offline 		Ever seen one of those technical trials about fraud where none of the jury have any clue as to what the people did?
 
I guess that is what putting God on trial would be like x (infinity-1)


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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 10:58:05 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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quote:

God on Trial


this topic title reminds me of the court hearing in "Oh, God":

"I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth...so help Me Me."




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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 11:06:56 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Can a bee keeper protect every single bee from harm?
Does a bee keeper care about the actions or inaction of every single bee?
A bee keeper only cares about the product.
Think of God as a bee keeper and then ask yourself what the product is?

Many models of God exist this is just one, God man be a Sheep farmer.


One of the reasons I am avoiding theological discussions is, because as an Atheist, I am bound by logic and reason. Theists are only bound by these concepts when it's convenient to them. So while my arguments are bound by rules and skepticism, Theists are free to "make shit up". They can make anything up!

As such, every theological discussion usually results in a number of people pontificating and lecturing on what exactly God is and why he does what he does as if it's "fact". But it's not fact. It's something made up or based off some selective piece of religious text that is contradicted by other pieces of religious text that they conveniently ignore.

You are more than welcome to make anything up you want to to provide some basis for believing in whatever you believe, whether it be goblins, gods, or gnomes.

But just once, can't you Theists at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you are making it up as opposed to being pompous about it?

Edited to Add : And yes, a god beekeeper can protect every bee from harm, because there is no limitations to what an omnipotent god can do. If he can't protect every bee from harm, then there is limitations, thus making him not omnipotent, and thus....not god.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/12/2008 11:10:14 AM >

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 12:29:00 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
One of the reasons I am avoiding theological discussions is, because as an Atheist, I am bound by logic and reason.

I don't see that being an atheist makes anybody any more logical or reasoned. It's a belief dressed up as logic and reason. Not knowing one part of the equation doesn't make the equation invalid. The only true way to be logical about it is to accept your limitations and simply to say "There are questions I can't answer so I am undecided. I can't prove God does or doesn't exist, I can only believe he does or he doesn't exist"
quote:


Theists are only bound by these concepts when it's convenient to them. So while my arguments are bound by rules and skepticism, Theists are free to "make shit up". They can make anything up!

People are free to make stuff up but to convince others there has to be some logic to their theories. All science starts with assumptions and then you go from there. Obviously the God question is not going to be answered by anyone in our lifetime (if ever) but people are free to have their theories and you are free to have your own but saying God doesn't exist because you are sceptical isn’t an argument that backs up your theory.
quote:


As such, every theological discussion usually results in a number of people pontificating and lecturing on what exactly God is and why he does what he does as if it's "fact". But it's not fact. It's something made up or based off some selective piece of religious text that is contradicted by other pieces of religious text that they conveniently ignore.

You may have noticed the distinct lack of religion in my post, the only thing I am sure about is no one knows the first thing about God or its existence if it exists. That is also why I said many models exist and why I didn't use one of the more common models that you may be more familiar with. It’s not pontificating it’s asking the question ‘what could be’.
quote:


You are more than welcome to make anything up you want to to provide some basis for believing in whatever you believe, whether it be goblins, gods, or gnomes.

No, some things can be eliminated i.e. if  God exists it is not an ant. Furthermore I’m agnostic the only true non religion. I’d go further to describe myself as agnostic with a hint of atheism but labels we all hate them right, unless they are on food.
quote:


But just once, can't you Theists at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you are making it up as opposed to being pompous about it?

Everyone makes things up but some call it inventing and others engineering, ideas are made up, what more do you want me to admit to?
quote:


Edited to Add : And yes, a god beekeeper can protect every bee from harm, because there is no limitations to what an omnipotent god can do. If he can't protect every bee from harm, then there is limitations, thus making him not omnipotent, and thus....not god.

That is one limited definition of God you are using the other more common definition is simply 'creator'.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 12:47:17 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
I don't see that being an atheist makes anybody any more logical or reasoned. It's a belief dressed up as logic and reason. Not knowing one part of the equation doesn't make the equation invalid. The only true way to be logical about it is to accept your limitations and simply to say "There are questions I can't answer so I am undecided. I can't prove God does or doesn't exist, I can only believe he does or he doesn't exist"


Then you are somewhat ignorant as to what Atheist means. It's the absence of a theistic belief. Weak atheists, like myself, don't assert one way or the other. Strong atheists are the one's who make a case to disprove God. Agnostics believe there is a God, but we have no knowledge of what that God is.

quote:


People are free to make stuff up but to convince others there has to be some logic to their theories. All science starts with assumptions and then you go from there. Obviously the God question is not going to be answered by anyone in our lifetime (if ever) but people are free to have their theories and you are free to have your own but saying God doesn't exist because you are skeptical isn’t an argument that backs up your theory.


I never made the assertion that God does not exist. I stated that I am an Atheist which means I lack the belief in a particular deity.

Also please don't confuse scientific and philosophical theory with religious belief. The first are built off logic, reason, and evidence. The other requires nothing but faith which is the anti-thesis to logic.

quote:


You may have noticed the distinct lack of religion in my post, the only thing I am sure about is no one knows the first thing about God or its existence if it exists. That is also why I said many models exist and why I didn't use one of the more common models that you may be more familiar with. It’s not pontificating it’s asking the question ‘what could be’.


No, I didn't notice that. It must have been the prophesying Yoda like style that threw me off.

quote:


Now, some things can be eliminated i.e. if  God exists it is not an ant. Furthermore I’m agnostic the only true non religion. I’d go further to describe myself as agnostic with a hint of atheism but labels we all hate them right, unless they are on food.


You are more than welcome to describe yourself how you wish, but be aware there is solid definitions regarding the words atheist and agnostic. If your appealing to an absence of regilious belief with speculation as to either way as opposed to the premise that God does exist, but we lack knowledge, then you would be, by textbook definition, an atheist pretending to be an agnostic. 

quote:


Everyone makes things up but some call it inventing and others engineering, ideas are made up, what more do you want me to admit to?


Once again lumping theories produced by science and philosophy and theories fabricated at the hands of some divine prophecy into one category does an injustice to the nature of both.

quote:


That is one limited definition of God you are using the other more common definition is simply 'creator'.


I was using the common definition that is normally adhered to in theological debates.

god
  the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

It is after all the first listing in the dictionary.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 1:01:21 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Agnostics believe there is a God, but we have no knowledge of what that God is.



This is incorrect. There are various forms of agnosticism, but a strong agnostic will say that whether God exists or doesn't exist is unknowable. I cannot know whether God exists or not: and neither can you.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 1:04:02 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Agnostics believe there is a God, but we have no knowledge of what that God is.



This is incorrect. There are various forms of agnosticism, but a strong agnostic will say that whether God exists or doesn't exist is unknowable. I cannot know whether God exists or not: and neither can you.


Okay, for the sake of being fair and to lighten the slightly pompous tone I took in my post, the standard definitions I learned in my research would classify that person as a weak Atheist instead of a strong Agnostic.

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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 1:12:04 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Then you are somewhat ignorant as to what Atheist means. It's the absence of a theistic belief. Weak atheists, like myself, don't assert one way or the other. Strong atheists are the one's who make a case to disprove God. Agnostics believe there is a God, but we have no knowledge of what that God is.

I can only suggest you go and read a dictionary we should at least be able to agree on what agnostic means it shouldn't be hard.
quote:


I never made the assertion that God does not exist. I stated that I am an Atheist which means I lack the belief in a particular deity.

Again refer to dictionary 'atheist'
I'm not going to debate what words means with you because that is semantics
quote:


Also please don't confuse scientific and philosophical theory with religious belief. The first are built off logic, reason, and evidence. The other requires nothing but faith which is the anti-thesis to logic.

I've not spoken about religious beliefs so how can I confuse them with science?
quote:


No, I didn't notice that. It must have been the prophesying Yoda like style that threw me off.

Know your level Luke.
quote:


You are more than welcome to describe yourself how you wish, but be aware there is solid definitions regarding the words atheist and agnostic. If your appealing to an absence of regilious belief with speculation as to either way as opposed to the premise that God does exist, but we lack knowledge, then you would be, by textbook definition, an atheist pretending to be an agnostic. 

I hate semantics but as you wish:
I describe myself in English what language are you using to describe yourself?
atheism
/aythi-iz’m/
 • noun the belief that God does not exist.
 — DERIVATIVES atheist noun atheistic adjective atheistical adjective.
 — ORIGIN from Greek a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/atheism?view=uk

agnostic
/agnostik/
 • noun a person who believes that nothing can be known concerning the existence of God.
 • adjective relating to agnostics.
 — DERIVATIVES agnosticism noun.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/agnostic?view=uk

Nice talking with you.


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RE: God on Trial - 11/12/2008 1:22:18 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Okay, for the sake of being fair and to lighten the slightly pompous tone I took in my post, the standard definitions I learned in my research would classify that person as a weak Atheist instead of a strong Agnostic.


Again, sorry for correcting you, but what you described sounded more like religious agnosticism to me (you agree that definitions do matter, hence my nitpicking :-) .


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