RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama

RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (Full Version)

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IamElise -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:01:03 AM)
An open letter to President-elect Obama on a bdsm forum thread? I assume you are writing to the President-elect an "open letter" because you know he's going to read it and perhaps personally answer you? (Although Termny8or made a damn fine surrogate) Is he a top or bottom? And why didn't the GOP get a hold of that information that he's a subscriber on collarme.com? I must admit that he and Michelle would look dandy in leathers. My goodness Satyr, go find someone out in the world and do a radom act of kindness. That's productive stuff.

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:04:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix Start by reading above. Then follow by reading Obama's tax plan. You'll be well on your way to enlightenment. Nope, ain't doing your research for you. Your claim, you back it up. Not up to me to prove a negative. Should be easy for you, since you're already enlightened and all. [sm=biggrin.gif]

nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:11:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix Start by reading above. Then follow by reading Obama's tax plan. You'll be well on your way to enlightenment. Nope, ain't doing your research for you. Yep, quite easy, having done all the research...but seriously, do you actually need it pointed out where Obama said outright that he wants to "spread the wealth around?" or his statement that he wants to bankrupt the coal industry? Or do you actually need his tax plan printed out here again, where he wants to increase taxes on the wealthy to give tax breaks to the middle/lower class? This is, like, common knowledge stuff, and fits right in with the definitions I posted here.

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:12:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix You should read above - it really is quite easy to demonstrate with factual definitions that Obama is socialist. (Yes, the Muslim part is ignorance, but research what "Socialism" is before claiming others "willfully ignorant"...Obama fits the word perfectly.) You demostrated this huh? [sm=rofl.gif] The only thing I saw you do was take someone else's definitions of socialism and say yep, Obama fits that. Yep, that one too. Oh yeah, he definitely fits that one perfectly. Very persuasive! Yes, I'm totally convinced now! Sheesh. Wonder what his answers to test questions were like in high school. "Hyperbole is exaggeration for effect. This book fits that perfectly." Grade: F

nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:14:37 AM)
Fortunate I am that your "grades" are meaningless then. =)

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:17:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix Start by reading above. Then follow by reading Obama's tax plan. You'll be well on your way to enlightenment. Nope, ain't doing your research for you. Yep, quite easy, having done all the research...but seriously, do you actually need it pointed out where Obama said outright that he wants to "spread the wealth around?" or his statement that he wants to bankrupt the coal industry? This is, like, common knowledge stuff, and fits right in with the definitions I posted here. Seriously, do you actually need it pointed out that "spread the wealth around" was Obama describing the current tax brackets? Do you actually need it pointed out that we've had a graduated tax system since 1903? Do you actually need it pointed out that by that definition, Reagan and both Bushes were socialist, since they supported the same graduated tax system? Seriously, you're basing your claim of Obama-is-a-socialist "fact" on a phrase? Seriously?

nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:20:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Do you actually need it pointed out that by that definition, Reagan and both Bushes were socialist, since they supported the same graduated tax system? Nope, I'm quite well aware that we've been headed for a socialist government for quite some time now. Bush was one of the more socialist presidents we've had as well - there was hardly a problem that came his way that he didn't answer with "More government! More spending!" Do you actually need it pointed out that I never asserted Obama was the only socialist president we've had? quote: Seriously, you're basing your claim of Obama-is-a-socialist "fact" on a phrase? Not just "on a phrase", but when that phrase is a statement of Obama's beliefs, and it fits in with the definition of socialism, that "phrase" does seem rather relevent aye?

IamElise -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:23:53 AM)
No no. It's based on the wisdom of Joe the Con Man. oops. I meant plumber. We all know that not paying taxes or child support makes you uber American. Joe knows socialism when he sees it. And all will follow in kind. Knee jerks aren't only liberal.

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:25:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Do you actually need it pointed out that by that definition, Reagan and both Bushes were socialist, since they supported the same graduated tax system? Nope, I'm quite well aware that we've been headed for a socialist government for quite some time now. Bush was one of the more socialist presidents we've had as well - there was hardly a problem that came his way that he didn't answer with "More government! More spending!" Do you actually need it pointed out that I never asserted Obama was the only socialist president we've had? And every President for the past 100 yeas, apparently. Still waiting for your enlightenment on how the graduated tax system we've had since 1903 equates to socialism.

nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:30:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Still waiting for your enlightenment on how the graduated tax system we've had since 1903 equates to socialism. quote: Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1] Do you really need it pointed out that upping taxes on the wealthy to give money back to the not-so-wealthy fits that definition perfectly?

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:39:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Still waiting for your enlightenment on how the graduated tax system we've had since 1903 equates to socialism. quote: Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1] Do you really need it pointed out that upping taxes on the wealthy to give money back to the not-so-wealthy fits that definition perfectly? Do you really need it pointed out that a graduated tax system is not unique to socialism? Do you really need it pointed out that by your goofy equation, every President for the past 100 years is a "socialist"? Do you really need it pointed out that your goofy equation then weakens your singling out Obama to the point of nothingness, since every Presidential candidate is thus a socialist?

nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:41:58 AM)
Basicly, we've been headed in a socialist direction for a long, long time. (I've seen a compelling argument that we've become the largest socialist power in the world, though I only partially agree with the conclusions. The 700 billion of governmenet money put into our banking system is a very socialist move for sure.) Wether or not this is a Good or Bad Thing (tm) is another debate entirely. I know quite a few people who did vote for Obama because he's a Socialist, and they believe we could use a little more Socialism. I obviously disagree with them on the latter point, but at least they're honest and knowledgable about Obama's economic/social positions so we haven't been stuck on the definitions of socialism. When I say Obama is a Socialist though, I'm not throwing the word as an insult...it's simply what he is. I like a lot of things about Obama, and think he has some good qualities needed in a president...I just can't support his economic views. I just find it amusing that so many of Obama's supporters can be divided into those that know he's Socialist and voted for him for that reason...and those who get offended when it's pointed out that he's a Socialist.

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:45:23 AM)
quote: Seriously, you're basing your claim of Obama-is-a-socialist "fact" on a phrase? Not just "on a phrase", but when that phrase is a statement of Obama's beliefs, and it fits in with the definition of socialism, that "phrase" does seem rather relevent aye? Unfortunately for your lame argument (as I've already explained), that phrase is not a statement of Obama's beliefs, but rather Obama clarifying the current tax system. For a statement of Obama's actual beliefs, I direct you to his actual tax plan on his website. You have read it, right? Since you've done research and all. Which so far has manifested itself as two phrases one can find on a number of right-wing websites.

nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:50:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Unfortunately for your lame argument (as I've already explained), that phrase is not a statement of Obama's beliefs, but rather Obama clarifying the current tax system. You're kidding me, right? Obama's exact words - "My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off if you’re gonna be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody." How is that NOT a statement of Obama's beliefs? After he outright says it is?

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:52:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix I like a lot of things about Obama, and think he has some good qualities needed in a president...I just can't support his economic views. By that logic you haven't supported the economic views of McCain Bush Jr Kerry Gore Clinton Dole Bush Sr Reagan etc., etc, since they have all supported this "socialist" tax system. Got it. And thus singling out Obama for being "socialist" is disingenous in the extreme.

kittinSol -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:56:17 AM)
OP, are you going to send that letter out to Obama? Or did you post it here purely for the purpose of venting?

nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:58:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 And thus singling out Obama for being "socialist" is disingenous in the extreme. Not at all. I loudly protested the 700 billion bailout for instance...it's a bigger part of my frustration with our government than Obama's election...so no, I'm not singling out Obama at all. I didn't vote for McCain, Bush Jr, Kerry, Gore, Clinton...etc either. I think Obama is further to the left than several of the above (which scares me), but I think all of the above are farther left than I'd like. Maybe you shouldn't assume one's entire political beliefs based on one's view of one person though, aye?

thishereboi -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 9:59:13 AM)
I wondered about that too kittin....maybe that's the reason Bush's letter went unheeded. He posted it here and forgot to mail a copy.

camille65 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 10:01:08 AM)
Whats wrong with posting it here for discussion? Or is it the poster who is the problem..?

Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 10:01:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nightphoenix quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 Unfortunately for your lame argument (as I've already explained), that phrase is not a statement of Obama's beliefs, but rather Obama clarifying the current tax system. You're kidding me, right? Obama's exact words - "My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off if you’re gonna be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody." How is that NOT a statement of Obama's beliefs? After he outright says it is? You're kidding me, right? You really don't understand that in that statement Obama was explaining his rescinding Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy? (it's been in all the news, surely you couldn't have missed it) So in your mind, going from a tax rate of 35% on the top tax bracket to the pre-Bush bracket of 38.5% is suddenly "socialism"? Is that really your argument?

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