RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (Full Version)

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nightphoenix -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 11:07:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Nightphoenix, you might want to change that "headed towards a socialist government for a long time now" to we have ALWAYS been a socialist government.



Yes, you're pretty much correct.  And truth be told, it's hard to have any form of government at all without *some* form of socialism. (the word in and of itself isn't evil or anything).  I guess what I meant is that we've a government that's headed *further* into socialism, and has been for a long time.




kittinSol -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 11:08:12 AM)

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meatcleaver -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 11:11:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Nightphoenix, you might want to change that "headed towards a socialist government for a long time now" to we have ALWAYS been a socialist government.



Yes, you're pretty much correct.  And truth be told, it's hard to have any form of government at all without *some* form of socialism. (the word in and of itself isn't evil or anything).  I guess what I meant is that we've a government that's headed *further* into socialism, and has been for a long time.


The American military-industrial complex is the biggest socialist project in the world but its funny how Republicans don't want to recognize that. Private companies that rely on government contracts to exist, are not private companies.




ElectraGlide -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 11:27:19 AM)

The suspense is killing me, I am just sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for Obama's response to this post.




Cagey18 -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 12:02:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

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Even better as a pas de deux:

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rulemylife -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 12:22:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix


I just find it amusing that so many of Obama's supporters can be divided into those that know he's Socialist and voted for him for that reason...and those who get offended when it's pointed out that he's a Socialist.


That all depends on how you define the term and the context in which it is used.

Many are offended because McCain and Palin said it in a derogatory manner using a very broad definition of the term.

Which you have also, on this thread and others.




michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/13/2008 12:23:53 PM)

i would like to add a P.S. to that letter

"Please add Dental and Vision care to the health care plan. wee desperately need help with these things"




Termyn8or -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/14/2008 7:50:43 AM)

We have been socialist for a long time, except only for the wealthy. Think of a contractor who is going to build a bunch of houses in a new development. Who builds the roads to get there ? What about the rest of the infrastructure ?

It's been said that up to 40% of the workforce is employed by the government, either directly or indirectly. My Mother was head of the purchasing department for  a small single plant gastet company in Lakewood, Ohio. We talked about work, mainly because we don't talk about bullshit. Half of what they did was for the government, not directly, but the manufacturers to whom they sold their product were producing equipment for the government. As a vendor, that company had to deal with governmment specifications, sometimes mil-spec.

Millions more than people expect, who are gainfully employed, have jobs dependent upon government contracts. I don't know if it's actually 40% but that figure seems plausible. You could be working in a foundry grinding flash off of small castings and there is a good chance that the ultimate use of those parts may be in something bought by the government.

That is only the tip of the iceberg. Mandatory car insurance is socialistic in nature. Seat belt laws, just think about it. Of course much of this was spurred on by the insurance industry.

Perhaps we are more what could be termed quasisocialist or semisocialist, as we seem to have all the disadvantages yet none of the advantages.

I bet noone around here has ever looked into the exchange between Horatio Bunce and then congressman David Crockett. Bunce understood the proper role of this government, as it was intended. In short, the government is not supposed to take from anyone to give to anyone else. In this way, many more people would have the means to bail themselves out if hard times hit. That was the idea. Personal responsibility for one's own well being, as well as actions.

But things changed. Big money moved in and made necessary the enactment of the Sherman anti-trust act. I believe it was directed at the railroad industry. One railroad had deep enough pockets to operate at a loss for a long time, thereby putting the competition out of business, attempting to create a monpoly. Pretty much what Walmart does these days. Some would say this is the proper role of government, to keep control over such things and I have no valid argument against that.

However, a properly drawn line between something the government should control and what they should not has not been established. Under a real socialist view, the government should have been in conrol of say, Chrysler, before the first bailout. They used anti-trust to make ATT break up, but look what has happened hence. They are reconsilidating. Why did they bother ?

Become a necessity, get nationalized. The only problem there is electing competent leaders, something at which we have been woefully inadequate for a long time.

During the industrial revolution, people you seem to love to hate, such as Hitler and Ford, made great strides in productivity and to this day we enjoy some benefit from their efforts. Meantime the people you seem to love to love have been taking our money and giving it away. Sometimes you have to think 'I am alright, the world is all wrong'.

And then we had Nixon. On a quick aside, I found out the other day that Nixon financed his 1948 campaign with money he won in a high stakes poker game. But then as President he instituted a wage and price freeze. How can he do that ? If I want a raise that is strictly between my employer and myself, how does government come into it ?

I would think that if the government can dictate wages and prices, they should be able to dictate a few other things, don't you ? I am not talking about environmental issues here, wages and prices are not environmental.

Good management would have kept all this from happening, and if we really could get good people into government we would be alot better off. Mandate that each US auto maker build a safe and reliable car for a certain amount of money. When they see them selling like hotcakes maybe they learn something eh ?

I read in an article so long ago no cites or quotes are likely to be available that Japanes auto makers used price driven costing in their design approach while US automakers used cost driven pricing. The way I understand it that means while some engineers put things down on paper (yes there used to be paper) they did not give primary concern to the cost, while other engineers were told "We intend to sell this car for $_____, make it happen". Who do you think wins in the marketplace ?

Well we have witnessed it if we were able to see it. The mess we are in is a direct result of poor management both on the part of industry and government. Could I do better ? I think so. People were chosen for these positions on the wrong criteria, and today is no different. We had to vote for Obama because he is the lesser of two evils.

Some companies still do this, but a while back many of them required candidates for major management positions to have worked every job in the company first. Some still do and actually I can't think of the name of one right now, I know one did. My buddy's kid was cum laude and got such a job. I can't remember the name of the company but if they appear in the news looking for a bailout I will recognize it. I doubt I'll see it. The company is a major meat processing plant in Kansas City IIRC. This kid (about 23 now) is among the best and brightest. However that doesn't mean he is qualified to run the place.

To succesfully run a business long term takes a special skill, one that isn't taught in school. Part of the problem is that people are chosen for the letters after their name. Look at Bush. He graduated near the top of his class, but ran a half dozen businesses into the ground before proceeding to the Whitehouse. I think a lack of experience is just fine about now.

Then look at the self made capitains of industry who dropped out of college. They are out there, more than most people think.

You got four years to see what happens, there is no sense in bitching about it right now.

T




BlackPhx -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/14/2008 8:58:52 PM)

To those who feel that the new administration of the may be leading us deeper into socialism.. please take a moment to consider the preamble of the constitution this country was founded on;

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "

and from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address

". . . that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.

We have always been a socialist republic forsaking in the beginning the religious changes in England that sent the Puritans here along with other discontents, rebelling against not only the non-represented taxes of England but the Classes of Lords and Ladies, Counts, Dukes and Kings as well as the workhouses and asylums for a land where each could reach for their dream and rely on the aid of family, friends and village to survive in a new world of their own creation.

Without reliance on each other rich and poor, perhaps America would still belong to the Native Americans. Then again, maybe if the Native Americans had not reached out and helped the new arrivals to these shores survive, they might have still have owned this land. Socialism, at it's finest, people helping one another in good times and bad..for the benefit of all.

The government should not own the businesses..that is Socialist, indeed, but if we all have to dig a little deeper to make sure all survive, then it is what this country was founded on.. We the People, in Union. Pay bonuses to those who have run their companies into the ground..no. Reorganize and protect jobs and give people a chance to recover and survive. Yes.

We the people, by the people, for the people, because that people is US.

poenkitten




thishereboi -> RE: An Open letter to President-elect Obama (11/14/2008 9:21:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Whats wrong with posting it here for discussion?

Or is it the poster who is the problem..?


I don't see anything wrong with posting it here. However he did mention in the begining that his letter to Bush went unheeded. I was merely speculating whether or not that was the reason.




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