RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over Abortion

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over Abortion

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over Abortion

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 7:29:44 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

FR...

"We hold these truths to be self evident..."

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 11/14/2008 7:31:23 PM >

(in reply to Evility)

Profile

Post #: 21

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 7:42:38 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR...

"We hold these truths to be self evident..."

Small problem with quoting the Declaration of Independence--it's not in the Constitution.

The Constitutional prohibition is on any law respecting the establishment of any religion.

_____________________________

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 22

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 7:45:02 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I'm still waiting for someone to show me something - anything - in the U.S. Constitution that mandates a separation of church and state.

Ever read the Bill of Rights?

(in reply to Evility)

Profile

Post #: 23

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:12:22 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I'm still waiting for someone to show me something - anything - in the U.S. Constitution that mandates a separation of church and state.

Ever read the Bill of Rights?

quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That is the sum total of the Constitution's commentary on "church and state". How does the First Amendment preclude church leaders from participating in civic dialog, or of churches taking moral positions on matters of public policy?

_____________________________

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Profile

Post #: 24

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:14:30 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

How does the First Amendment preclude church leaders from participating in civic dialog, or of churches taking moral positions on matters of public policy?

????

I haven't made any such claim. I haven't even addressed that issue here at all.

What are you talking about?

The poster asked for any reference. It's there.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/14/2008 8:17:27 PM >

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Profile

Post #: 25

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:20:02 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HagiaSophia

I must go with Gloria Steinem on this one:

"If men could menstruate, abortion would be a sacrament."

If I wanted a bunch of men who wear dresses and won't fuck women to give me advice on sex, I'd find the nearest Drag show. With all respect to Drag Queens - I apologize for comparing you to sexless prunes (Bishops, not all Catholics) who want to ruin it for the rest of us.

You sound like they are threatening to call the cops on your party....wouldn't want to ruin all that fun, right?

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to HagiaSophia)

Profile

Post #: 26

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:21:01 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

I haven't made any such claim. I haven't even addressed that issue here at all.

What are you talking about?

The poster asked for any reference. It's there.

Not really. The First Amendment does not call for an absolute separation of church and state. The proscription is of the government involving itself in religious affairs, not of religious people involving themselves in government affairs. It's not a two-way street.

Edited to add:
No, you did not make that claim per se, and I did not mean to imply that you had. I do believe, however, that it is an inaccurate reading of the First Amendment to reach an absolute separation of church and state.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 11/14/2008 8:23:01 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Profile

Post #: 27

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:23:34 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

I feel like I've gone back in time. I can't believe we are actually discussing this issue. We need more abortion, not less. There are too many people on the planet.

In some countries they allow a couple to have x amount of babies and they just kill the ones after that....maybe we could try that for a while and see how it works.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Profile

Post #: 28

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:27:20 PM

MissSCD

Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline

I am not catholic, but I know about this. I would raise hell with the Catholic church as I did with the Baptist church.
I voted for Obama because of the right to choose. I think it is very important to women in this country.
I am so much happier out of the baptist church. I love the pentecostal church. We just pray for everyone, and keep going which is what you are supposed to do and teach your kids right from wrong.

Regards, MissSCD

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Profile

Post #: 29

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:37:44 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~FR~

Well, I find it rather amusing that the God in the (KJV) bible pretty much tells folks not to speak for him, don't try to understand his ways, don't take anything out, don't add anything in, yet there are a whole bunch of people who say a whole bunch of things in "His" name which have nothing to do with the bible. The RCC isn't going to be able to force the administration to do anything and given their history all I can say is.. Thank God for that!

I agree with this. The RCC is trying to strong arm the new administration into doing things the RCC way. I doubt Obama is going to cave, I think he realizes this is no time to go back to the dark ages.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Profile

Post #: 30

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 8:57:08 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

FR...

"We hold these truths to be self evident..."

Small problem with quoting the Declaration of Independence--it's not in the Constitution.

The Constitutional prohibition is on any law respecting the establishment of any religion.

No it's not. The U.S. Constitution also does not give the right to liberty either. The United States Declaration of Independence is a statement of inherent rights that exists outside of any government. It states given truths (self evident) and some (among these) but not all rights, that belong to us by our very creation, rights that governments can neither give nor take away. Creation grants the right to life, not the U. S. Constitution.

(etited mention to give to more clearly make my point)

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 11/14/2008 9:04:59 PM >

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Profile

Post #: 31

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:01:14 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

The U.S. Constitution also does not mention the right to liberty either

Yes it does--in the Preamble:

quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

_____________________________

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 32

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:02:44 PM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Ttaxpayer funded abortion

Termynator

Uh, Termy, if you meant Medicaid, which is sometimes given to women receiving Welfare, the Feds prohibit states from offering this coverage (as if any would).

Just another way we screw over poor women here in the U.S., but hey, it's an unborn baby -- whoops, it's a rusty coathanger, sorry.

Peace out.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/14/2008 9:04:22 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 33

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:03:05 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

It only exists to secure the right to liberty, it does not create it.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Profile

Post #: 34

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:03:17 PM

smartalex

Posts: 50
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline

Someone didn't watch enough Schoolhouse Rock. Thanks, CL, I'll be singing that for the rest of the night.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Profile

Post #: 35

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:08:23 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
It only exists to secure the right to liberty, it does not create it.

This is a given. In fact, the 9th and 10th Amendments explicitly acknowledge the existence or potential existence of rights not already enumerated either in the Constitution proper or in any of its Amendments--and goes on to reserve them to the people and/or their respective states.

The Constitution itself creates no rights at all. In this wise, you are correct to reference the construct from the Declaration of Independence of "inalienable" rights--basic human rights and civic rights exist prior to the formation of any government, and government is instituted in order to secure and preserve all such rights.

However, no such charter upon government mandates a separation of church and state, which was my original response to your "We hold these truths" post.

_____________________________

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 36

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:25:43 PM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I'm still waiting for someone to show me something - anything - in the U.S. Constitution that mandates a separation of church and state.

Good Lord, Evility. Was Civics Class in a big ole snooze-fest for you? Gheesh, I guess if'n you had to emigrate you would need to study up, huh? (I'm assuming you're a U.S. guy -- pardon me if'n you're not.)

Us. Constiitution, Bill of Rights, Article I:

quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Doctrine of Separation of Church and State:

quote:

The framers were opposed to the establishment of a state religion. They wanted each citizen to be able to worship freely according to his or her own conscience. They required specifically in Article Six of the Constitution that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." Their intentions were clear. Religious freedom is not to be merely tolerated but is an absolute natural right.

This doctrine has gone unchallenged for over 200 years until religious groups began to erode its meaning in order to allow the government to use public tax dollars to support private religious schools and other religious institutions. The clear lines of separation are being blurred as they seek to distinguish between the accommodation of religion and the establishment of religion.

One of the clearest defenses of the doctrine was made by our first Catholic president in a speech before the Ministerial Association of Greater Houston (Texas) on September 12, 1960:

I believe in an America where the separation of Church and State is absolute, where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be a Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote, where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference, and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. (John F Kennedy)

Our founding fathers wanted to avoid the kind of wars that had been fought for centuries in the name of religion

http://www.tulsainterfaith.org/separate.htm

*Whew*

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/14/2008 9:28:46 PM >

(in reply to Evility)

Profile

Post #: 37

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:33:51 PM

michaelOfGeorgia

Posts: 4253
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/11/11/catholic-bishops-vow-confront-obama-administration-abortion/
BALTIMORE -- The nation's Roman Catholic bishops vowed Tuesday to forcefully confront the Obama administration over its support for abortion rights, saying the church and religious freedom could be under attack in the new presidential administration. In an impassioned discussion on Catholics in public life, several bishops said they would accept no compromise on abortion policy. Many condemned Catholics who had argued it was morally acceptable to back President-elect Obama because he pledged to reduce abortion rates.

Thoughts please... Is the Cathollic church going to far, will it make a difference to the government? Does it affect you if you are Catholic? This isnt so much a desire to get into another abortion debate as much as the "separation" of church and state.Lucy

personally, i think the churches always tend to stick their noses into other people's business. this is one of the reasons i gave up religion a long time ago.

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Profile

Post #: 38

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 9:34:37 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

Two points...

One... Abortion exists beyond religion. In their opposition, the Bishops are calling upon the right to life as inalienable and since the Constituton was created to secure such rights, it is the duty of United Staes to protect said right.

Two... "secure the Blessings of Liberty" (note the capital B). In that context, they are saying that Liberty is a gift from God.

And for the record, the document having noted the Blessings of Liberty, was ratified it by unanimous consent in the "Year of our Lord" (exact language) "one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven"

The same Lord that gave the Blessings.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Profile

Post #: 39

RE: Bishops Vow to Confront Obama Administration Over A... - 11/14/2008 10:30:56 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

I hate to hijack this thing back from bumfuckt Antarctica somewhere but oh well.

"whatever the democratic process determines. "

NO, LE, that is EXACTLY why this was setup as a Republic.

In a true democracy your neighbors, even people in different states, or couties or whatever could vote that you have to paint your house blue. It becomes law, in a Democracy that is, in a Republic the government prevents bullshit like that from happening. In a true Republic, not that we have ever witnessed one, the leaders actually are servants.

Actually if true socialism was achieved it might be a good thing, or even communism. But mankind's greed keeps it from happening time and time again. It has been that way for quite some time now. The concept is not all that bad, it's just when you try to apply it to humans it is bad.

T

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 40