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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/16/2008 7:21:11 PM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		ummm raises hand i can think of some things ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsStarlett

OMG!  I accidentally posted a reply in the "Ask a Master" section on Spanking Bottoms.  I just saw the topic in the latest post listing and thought it sounded like an interesting topic.  I didn't ask permission to post there.  Whatever shall I do?

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/16/2008 8:17:27 PM   
WyldHrt


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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/16/2008 11:06:51 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I guess I see the "Ask a Mistress" title as more a sign this is a forum for female dominant relationships.


I interpret the title the same way and see the forum to be a femdom community. This interpretation is consistent with the discussions that are had here; often there are threads that direct a question to those who submit to women.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FloridaMistresse
Basically not sure why there are even categories if they are to be ignored. Why not just one big Topic? Ask anyone anything at all.


The categories exist for good reason. However, the categories have been interpretted in a way that is more practical. I do indeed think that to interpret this forum as one that centers around femdom is a more pratical interpretation than one that is simply to ask questions to dommes. Otherwise, if one has a matter that is relevant to both dommes and those who submit to them, one would have to post a question in this forum, and also in Ask A Sub/Slave. I think having a consolidated discussion in one place is more practical.

Thus, I think it is not the interpretation but the heading that should change.

Perhaps what you are wanting is an additional community for dommes only. While this community is one that has its place and I have seen to exist, it does not exist on this site.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
If the thread says specifically "...to a Mistress" no I don't think s-types of any kind should be responding unless the message is dictated to them from the Mistress that they serve. While I may read those types of threads, I often don't respond to those...with the major exception being "Mistress...how do I find the perfect Mistress?" Mainly because I don't think Female Dominants are the only ones that will give the quality of advice needed or wanted in those types of threads, as the already involved s-type will also be able to provide great advice based on successfully completing that phase of establishing a relationship with a Mistress.


Just as the title of the thread is not taken literally, often the demographic addressed in a subject or OP is also not taken literally outside any explicit emphasis. You provide an example of when you or male subs might respond to a thread addressed to dommes about how to find a mistress. Does the reason you give for why you think it is appropriate to respond to such a thread even if it is addressed to dommes--that you have insights that provide for constructive contributions to the discussion--not also apply to the thread in question? Can you or a male sub not have useful insights about how to maintain D/s headspace and not be overwhelmed by vanilla life?

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/16/2008 11:23:03 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FloridaMistresseIs this a free forum, YUP, but does that mean that men or anyone for that matter, should ignore or in my opionion disrespect the perspective of the OP or the gidelines of the room?  I personally think that speaks volumes of the person that ignores them. What other perspecitves does they  ignore in their life?  Just food for thought.


Here is some more food for thought.

I have made a case in my prior post for why the forum should be interpretted as a femdom community versus a place to only ask questions to dommes. I am interested to hear your case for why it should be interpretted as a place to only ask questions to dommes.

I openly interact with persons of all roles and preferences in real life and online communities. I welcome contributions in this forum from anyone--whatever their sex, gender, or role--as long as they are constructive contributions. You seem to think that only dommes should respond to threads. Would you help me see your reason for why it is a bad idea to exclude constructive contributions to a discussion that are not from a domme?

You seem to suggest that my contribution to your thread reflects poorly on my character. I am comfortable with how my conduct in this forum and in the various communities in which I interact has reflected on my character. I will add that if I were to direct a question to dommes and a male dominant came and added a thoughtful response to my question, I would be appreciative of it or, even if I did not find the contribution useful to me, I would be gracious in my response due to the helpful intent. I am also comfortable about how this approach instead of the one you took reflects on my character.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to FloridaMistresse)
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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 1:14:35 AM   
beeble


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quote:

ineedotk wrote:
And concerning American football, yes, it's true that there is more to American football than the name implies.  The "real" footballs are ruby and soccer (futbal).

Rugby is mainly about handling the ball, too.

quote:

American football is foot & hand ball.  But what would one call it other than football? 

Oh, I don't know.  But golf, tennis, hockey and so on have abstract names; baseball, basketball and racquetball are named after other parts of equipment used in the game.  We should...  wait for it...  ask the Mistresses!

OK, this is way off-topic so we probably oughtn't go much further with this line.

beeble

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 6:53:55 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

Just as the title of the thread is not taken literally, often the demographic addressed in a subject or OP is also not taken literally outside any explicit emphasis. You provide an example of when you or male subs might respond to a thread addressed to dommes about how to find a mistress. Does the reason you give for why you think it is appropriate to respond to such a thread even if it is addressed to dommes--that you have insights that provide for constructive contributions to the discussion--not also apply to the thread in question? Can you or a male sub not have useful insights about how to maintain D/s headspace and not be overwhelmed by vanilla life?

Cheers,

Sea


Don't get me wrong undergroundsea...I believe you DO contribute honestly with intent to assist or provide insight. AND the thread in question wasn't about what can s-types do in these situations...it was how have Dommes addressed this situation. It was specifically geared that way. And it was pretty clear to me that it was geared that way. How can I find a Domme?-isn't about how the Dommes see or deal with cretain situations...it's about how the s-type can go about doing x, y, and z. The direction of that type of thread is different than the other one the OP started.

I also think given the question, that it was pretty clear that the OP expected the title of the thread to be taken literally. However, I do get that some people don't feel that way.

So my question is...how would one be clear in the title of a thread that they want the title to be taken literally rather than as a catch phrase that isn't so important to the thread?

boi

(in reply to undergroundsea)
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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 7:23:36 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I've really been holding off on answering on this thread because... well... yeah, I think it's just fine being open to whoever wishes to reply.
 
See, I'm sure there are some male s-types here who's mistress doesn't post on these boards, and in that instance they could very well be speaking from experience, as in "When it happened to us my mistress did such and such". Or the "If it were my relationship in question I know what would work to bring me back that that sub/slave mindset" type thing. I think the input of sub/slave types is awesome!! If they weren't allowed to post to certain threads because of the particular forum they were in then chances are I wouldn't have much use for the threads either. And on rare occasion my husband will comment on this forum as well, and that's because he lives with a dominant female and knows me almost better then I do.
 
But yeah, I'm one of those that will post anyplace I find something interesting to discuss. I very rarely post in "ask a master" mainly because I very rarely read there... mostly because I'm easily bored.
 
And as far as posting respectfully? For the most part the s-types do post respectfully here and on the other forums as well. But I've also seen dominant females that are far less respectful of others in their postings.
 
Jewel

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 8:09:17 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
I also think given the question, that it was pretty clear that the OP expected the title of the thread to be taken literally. However, I do get that some people don't feel that way.

So my question is...how would one be clear in the title of a thread that they want the title to be taken literally rather than as a catch phrase that isn't so important to the thread?


Thanks for your post. Yes, I did not take the title of the thread literally, just as I often have not done or see others not do in threads here (like Mistress, Why Cannot I Find a Mistress to Serve threads, or Mistress Do You Like to do X activity). I see the thread to provide a discussion topic and I have an open approach about who responds and what type of discussion is had as long as it is constructive or well-intended. Perhaps my open philosophy about such matters affects my interpretation.

In response to your question, because it is common enough in this forum to not take the demographic addressed literally, explicit emphasis would help if one wishes to limit responses to a particular demographic. For instance, I think in the case at hand it would help to have instead a title From Mistress to Mistress (Only Seeking Replies from Dommes) or, to keep the subject line from becoming too long, keep the title as it is and clarify that comments are sought from dommes only at the beginning of the OP. I think how this clarification is worded will impact how effective and practical it proves to be.

I recognize that someone new to the forum, or someone who does not have as loose an interpretation of discussions here as I do would think that simply a title such as From Mistress to Mistress should be adequate. I have no immediate answer for how this person can know to provide such an emphasis, or when the forum can know when to take the addressed demographic literally and when to not. I can only suggest trial and error for each such a person, and for those who have the looser interpretation.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 11/17/2008 8:13:32 AM >

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 8:38:31 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Okay, i could take this one step further, using the OP's logic, and start a thread asking for responses only from bisexual and certain lesbian dommes - stone butch and androgynous as opposed to femme lesbian dommes. I could state the same justification, that only these dommes understand my journey. Then what?

Would | be offended if a heterosexual domme posted a reply? Or a femme lesbian? No I wouldn't, because I have no knowledge of their experience or insight. Given the choice, I would rather have 50 different people responding to a thread than none at all (and yes, this does happen).

I write from personal experience and that experience is one of being excluded from various things simply because I don't fit neatly into one of the two binary genders. I'm always going to be in a no win situation, and this comes from being the way I am simply because I was born this way. One of my reasons for coming here is that I am included and accepted for who I am.

This is more an LGBT issue than a BDSM issue. I am female and I identify as a lesbian because I form intimate relationships with women, and yet the word 'lesbian' comes out of my mouth and is therefore defined by me as such. Referring to me as male or anything other than female is disrespectful because I never present myself as such, and the person doing so is doing so on the basis of their own assumptions of me. Those intimate relationships don't necessarily involve sexual intercourse and yes, I have served lesbian dommes in my past. If I am living 24/7 as a female and working as a female then I feel I should be included in things which are female only. Most of the lesbians I have encountered don't have an issue with this, though some do.

But this isn't a gynarchist or even an Aristasian website, but a general BDSM website on which the majority of posts are made from the heterosexual perspective from those involved or seeking male-female relationships. Just as it is in society.

There have been threads on subjects relevant to those of us who are transgendered and what? We haven't got a cat in hell's chance of getting our own forum on these boards through our sheer lack of numbers and other people who are non-transgendered post to these threads and I for one am glad that they do. It gives a totally different perspective. Would I feel that they are being disrespectful in responding?

No I wouldn't. Being transgendered isn't a prerequisite to understand my journey, my transition or my experiences in life. I share my life with many other people who are not transgendered, both men and women, and they understand me just as well as others who are just like me. In fact those closest to me and who have given me lots of valuable advice have been lesbians and bisexual women, not other transgendered females and some of the most supportive people have been heterosexuals of both genders. Some share just as much insight into this journey as someone like me and their views and opinions are just as valid. Some don't, but this doesn't matter, what matters is that they have come to find out, to learn, to take part and to share.

Not responding to a thread at someone's request isn't a big issue for me. In fact I don't respond to all the threads and I never post in the Gorean section of these boards simply because I am not Gorean and have no desire to learn or become Gorean. However whenever I start a thread I understand and accept the fact that I have no way of controlling who responds to that thread and how they respond to that thread, and therefore I refrain from asking specific people questions in my OP and just ask questions from everyone who happens to see the thread and wishes to respond to it.

You see if I want more specific advice only from certain people I will invariably message them on the other side and enter into a private dialogue with them rather than attempt to direct or dictate to others generally over who can respond and how they are to respond. I do this because I respect that everyone else has an account here and they have equal rights to respond to any thread on any board as I have. Respect truly does start from me and is reflected in everything I write and everything I do which affects other people, and part of that respect is consideration for these other people and their opinions and feelings.



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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 8:50:07 AM   
AAkasha


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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Or you can do what I did...write her privately and see what happens. I got a positive response asking for my input and possible insight.

Yeah, I didn't post on the "From an Mistress TO a Mistress" thread because to me that says "you're not invited to add anything here." And the OP stated her reasons why that was. No the forum isn't private property AND let's be honest...when we (as individuals) go looking for advice from a group we belong to, we don't really like that space to be invaded for any reason by an "outsider." We feel that the thing that binds us to that group is a commonality and someone without that commonality adding to that space often only makes us defensive.

Straight s-type males bond with straight s-type males and often do so to the exculsion of others including butch lesbian s-types or gay s-type males and straight s-type females...straight female s-types will gravitate to straight female s-types with similar exlusions...it's because the experience of any given thing is different from their perspective as a group than it is from another group. So I get where there's a preference sometimes to hear advice from those you feel there maybe an innate connection with. That's all

boi


I think the OP on that thread was pretty clear she wanted opinions from other femdoms.  Should male subs or others not post? As someone who has been posting on message boards since the old usenet days, I recognize that random posts may end up on my threads, and I can just skip past them without much bother.  But to someone who is new to this place, or message boards in general, they may get irritated if they see two pages of responses and then start reading them and realize only a couple of people really addressed what they wanted to discuss, per their OP.

The other problem with this is that threads go off on tangents, as we all know.  So if a submissive gives his POV, it encourage an entirely new line of thinking and debate, and next thing you know, the thread has morphed, and the OP sees even less response to her question if people are honed in on the tangent.  To someone who doesn't read message boards all the time, this can lead to frustration, I would imagine.  For those of us that read here all the time, we recognize that tangents are common and that the OP is still going to get attention - and we also know the faces, names and personalities around here and know if a thread is derailed. I'd even go so far to say that if a really bad tangent was happening - like a sub-sub-sub debate about whether or not toe-sucking was a kick-start to femdom and then further derailed into methods of toe-sucking -- A femdom would step back in and re-rail the thread and try to bring it back around, because as a community we "get it" - and want to make sure the OP is addressed.

To someone new to message boards, this might not all be evident.  It might just look like she asked a specific question of specific people and suddenly random people started giving different POVs she didn't want.  To add to that, I'll also state that what a *sub* thinks can help a femdom relationship dynamic work is FAR different from what a femdom thinks, in many cases. I don't care HOW much experience a sub has, he can't 100% state he knows what's going on if he's never been the woman in a relationship.

If a woman posted on here, "Lady seeks opinions from other ladies on menstrual pain and remedies" and a sub started posting his experiences with what worked (from his POV) it still would not carry as much weight as the ladies who actually have felt the pain.  It also might cause a further derailment discussion into dealing with women who were cranky from PMS, and that would not be what the OP was asking in the first place.

Akasha


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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 9:14:44 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I went back and took a look, not only at the thread title that this all came from, but the content of that original post as well.  Yes, both did specify that it was addressing other Mistresses.  I suppose My next comment is so what?  If the question at hand is an honest one, and I believe it was, why would anyone not want to hear any potential answer that might be out there?  Does it really matter where an idea to solve an issue comes from if it works?

Something else that I chose to look at.  While the title of this particular forum is "Ask A Mistress," if you look at the secondary title, it reads "find your answer - share your experience."  That's exactly what happened on the other thread.  Someone took the time to be gracious enough to share his actual life experience with a similar situation, and listed in that reply something that actually worked.  The nuts and bolts of the content of the reply didn't change it's worth because the writer happened to be submissive and male.  Instead, it was rejected solely on that basis, and in My opinion, in a rather rude fashion at that.  I didn't post My reaction to that particular part of the thread this one is based on, but I have said already in private conversation that if it would have been My submissive being treated that way, I'd have been right there at his defense.  I hope said submissive is not offended by My reaction.

Yes, it is good to seek out advice and listen to your peers.  That goes for all of us.  Yet, where would many of us be if we never learned anything from the other side of the kneel?   If we were so closed minded that the source of the information was more important than the information itself, especially when it is something that could enhance the dynamics that are so important to us.


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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 9:30:45 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha


If a woman posted on here, "Lady seeks opinions from other ladies on menstrual pain and remedies" and a sub started posting his experiences with what worked (from his POV) it still would not carry as much weight as the ladies who actually have felt the pain.  It also might cause a further derailment discussion into dealing with women who were cranky from PMS, and that would not be what the OP was asking in the first place.

Akasha



Me cranky due to PMS? Ha, I'm cranky because I have flu AND PMS...

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 9:54:16 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		So my question is...how would one be clear in the title of a thread that they want the title to be taken literally rather than as a catch phrase that isn't so important to the thread?
 
Boyjen, my own answer to that, as you know, is that your question itself is wrongly premised.  No doubt that there's a way of making it abundantly clear that one is requesting that this or that group not involve itself in a given thread.  However my opinion is that such a request could legitimately be denied and probably will be in most cases.  Reasons as per my previous post here.



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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 9:55:43 AM   
FloridaMistresse


Posts: 58
Joined: 3/18/2006
Status: offline 		Well, it seems to Me that no matter what is posted by Myself or others that there  is always going to be a malcontented response. 
I have even been accused of being ruse to a male sub!  LOL  Let's just stick to some facts here:

1) OP was in fact specifically addressed to Mistresses  ( gender specificty was not included so I think you can put the reigns on that vien my dear)
2) I was not the person that bought up on the board that I only sought a FemDom POV, it was first mentioned by another.
3) I clarified that I was only seeking a Mitresses POV  and I was resolutely told  "denied"  ( some how that is not rude? perhaps there is a different standard for male subs Vs Female Mistresses?) 
4) The feedback from the males was not beneficial to Me in any way.  Sorry just a fact.
5) Many have written Me off the board and thanked Me for bringing up males responding on this board, that is beleaguers them to say the least.
6) I did not name  the board.
7) There are boards that are named "Ask  a submissives" ( notice I did not post the question on that board, think perhaps I had My reasons for that?)
8) Am I not entitled to elicit whatever POV I so choose?
9) Is it appropriate to malign Me or redirect Me, or whatever verb you so choose, for having the desire to seek a POV from a certain group? In this case Mistresses.
10) An s-type  responded off the board to Me and was very respectful, insightful and well received by Me.  Imagine that!! Shocking!!!

Do I think in some topics all POV are beneficial or even amusing. Yes,   this topic for instance I think it more open to responses from bottoms and Tops, male or female.  However in My OP  "From a Mistress to a Mistress"  it was not disrespectful or unreasonable to hope that only Mistresses reply. 

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 10:24:03 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		I think what’s happening. FM, is that people are now beginning to restate their original positions on this matter.  I believe that this is because of root assumptions involved in what a forum is about.  Your points/questions 1), 4), 6), 8), show that you’re continuing to make assumptions regarding the nature of this forum that aren’t, apparently, shared by most people here.  This is how I tried to explain that majority assumption, as far as I see it, in my earlier post on this thread.  Perhaps Sambamanslilgirl puts it most succinctly right at the beginning:  

Firstly, I'm strongly behind Sambamanslilgirl when she says  threads are not the personal property of the anyone after they've posted them on a site like this.  I'm a veteran of a few other forums and none has operated on the basis of a simple "question from one person, answers all addressed to that person" principle.  IMO, the more useful and relevant analogy for everyone is that of a seminar.  One person starts a debate - 'the student giving the paper', i.e. the OP - and all participants (with any luck) benefit.  This idea, that many people may join in on a forum thread with their own interests and their own answers to others' questions is what keeps forums like this lively.  Not just one person, but many people, benefit.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 11/17/2008 10:25:51 AM >

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 10:37:23 AM   
FloridaMistresse


Posts: 58
Joined: 3/18/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry peon  but the above points were not assumptions, but rather facts.  There is absolutely no way one can assume that when I state #4 the feedback from  males was not beneficial to Me is an assumption. It is in fact a simple fact.  It seems that fact bothers some people on here. Why, I am not sure, perhaps the why is the real question. Could it possibly be that not all male opinions are useful?  No couldn't be that.  Could it be that some men  think that women should value their POV even if its not asked for?  No No No I am sure its not that either.  Hmm <tapping chin>  wondering what it could be.  Well, I am sure some nice, kind, respectful man will be more than happy to tell Me what it is.


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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 10:53:54 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FM,

Maybe I wasn't clear.  I was talking about what I see to be your assumptions underlying the points and questions you listed above.  Specifically, the assumptions regarding the nature of forums generally and this one in particular. 

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 10:58:00 AM   
LadyLou


Posts: 110
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		 
I haven't read all of the responses here, apologies if I reiterate.


I have been an on/off lurker of this board for a couple of years. I personally take the 'Ask A...' title as guidance for general topic. For example, I take the Ask A Mistress heading as debate/questions/banter etc etc relating to Mistresses and female led relationships – not a forum exclusive to dominant women. Therefor, imo anyone with a question/reply that somehow relates to female led relationships are free to reply. That would quite naturally include subs/slaves/switches/male doms in a domme/dom relationship etc etc etc . I guess the best thing is that if one only wants a Mistress perspective, then a disclaimer stating such should be made.


I occasionally venture into the Ask A Sub forum, and I have noticed that it does seem to primarily consist of a good 'feminine' camaraderie of female subs talking about their Masters, and other things most guysubs won't relate too. The guy subs seem pretty outnumbered their, and I very rarely have seen a malesub post a question in the Ask A Sub/Slave section. So I guess it would be kind of natural that they venture into here more.

I personally think this forum would be pretty boring (and topics would dry up real quick) if guysubs weren't able to post in the Ask A Mistress section, it's valuable to hear an opinion or two from the other side.

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RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 11:05:02 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		FR - My tuppence is that the boards are freely accessible to anyone.  No one owns them.  If someone doesn't like the way CM's boards are structured, that person is welcome not to participate.  Who's allowed or not allowed to post is certainly not an issue I'd get my knickers in a knot over, but others may enjoy having knotted knickers.

(in reply to LadyLou)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Should men be responding to Ask a Mistress? - 11/17/2008 11:08:20 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FloridaMistresse

Or is it an open forum to too bad so sad they get to respond even though they are not the ones being asked?


It is a forum with a topic scroller at the top, where a significant fraction of the posters will be coming in from that. Sometimes, one may not notice which board a message is posted on. I have posted in this section before, and I've usually been met with a positive response when I try to bear in mind that it's not "my house," so to speak. Obviously, I can't comment usefully on being a mistress, whatever my blood work might say. But a lot of the threads here, as elsewhere, do not deal exclusively with matters where only a female dominant can contribute usefully, and some do actually deal specifically with men in one form or another. In those threads, men may have something useful to contribute, and it seems odd to draw lines in the sand and isolating people on their respective "sides" of such a line. Fortunately, CollarMe has been blessedly free of such antics, and I hope it remains that way.

And let's not, perhaps, forget the inherent value of maintaining the sense of community that derives from people being able to get to know each other by engaging in constructive exchanges across the board. There are a lot of interesting people I might not have talked to, or had a reasonable impression of, if I had not sampled different parts of the board.

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: Elsewhere on the boards, some threads explicitly state the target audience in the OP, and most people respect that; maybe it can work here, too?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to FloridaMistresse)
Profile   Post #: 120
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