RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable?

RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (Full Version)

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Darias -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:43:38 PM)
is this the wrong crowd to start the * ner ner ner ner we kicked your butts * dance ?? according to an old history professor of mine the rebellion in ireland had no effect except to bring the crown to the negociating table ... the british werent kicked out of ireland .. in fact they brought in more and more occuping forces in the black and tans ... things in ireland didnt really improve .. the attrocities commited by the aforementioned black and tans being worse than what was commited under the old landowners ... yes the reblion convinced the british that ireland might be a little too much to hold on to ... but in the end the results gained were at the negociating table not at the end of a gun one hopes in this day and age the gun part could be avoided . if for instance soctland decided as a country that it wanted out of great britian it wanted its own borders armed forces taxes etc ... do you think it would end up being sorted over tanks and harrier jets ?

slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:43:52 PM)
As do I Philo,especially in light of previous post's.

kdsub -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:45:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy The two biggest losses to the British Empire, those of America and Ireland initially came about through armed insurrection, so I suppose it might be seen as a good thing. I think to lose one colony might be seen as understandable, but to lose both looks like carelesness. Only We and the Romans know what it's like. Not to worry...the way things are going you may soon be come the 53rd state...right after Canada the 52nd then you can kick ass again. Butch

slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:49:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darias is this the wrong crowd to start the * ner ner ner ner we kicked your butts * dance ?? according to an old history professor of mine the rebellion in ireland had no effect except to bring the crown to the negociating table ... the british werent kicked out of ireland .. in fact they brought in more and more occuping forces in the black and tans ... things in ireland didnt really improve .. the attrocities commited by the aforementioned black and tans being worse than what was commited under the old landowners ... yes the reblion convinced the british that ireland might be a little too much to hold on to ... but in the end the results gained were at the negociating table not at the end of a gun one hopes in this day and age the gun part could be avoided . if for instance soctland decided as a country that it wanted out of great britian it wanted its own borders armed forces taxes etc ... do you think it would end up being sorted over tanks and harrier jets ? Ahh,but therein lies the rub Darias,England never sits down at that table if the worlds most sucessful terrorist (Michael Collins) hadn't forced her there at the point of a gun.

TheHeretic -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:50:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 in the case of Bush, the public were able to use the ballot box. It didn't even require a ballot, Polite. George Bush will leave office automatically. We have quite a good system for peaceful change, within the established process. As long as that process is working, I cannot see a need for armed rebellion. The vague threat of it does tend to oil the gears, though. [;)]

philosophy -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:51:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Ahh,but therein lies the rub Darias,England never sits down at that table if the worlds most sucessful terrorist (Michael Collins) hadn't forced her there at the point of a gun. ...wrong. First off, it's Britain, England is just part of the UK. Secondly that's not how the peace process started. While i agree with you much of the time Mike, that post was just ignorant. [:@]

Darias -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:53:49 PM)
wouldn't calling Micheal Collins a terrorist be the same as calling a bunch of guys known as the framers terrorists ? or is it cause the big fella fought with the tactics that were at his disposal ? you expected ireland to strap on a bunch of pretty green coats and march into an empty field and face down rifles and cannon .... come on dude ... admit it ... good old great Britain grabbed land for hundreds of years simply cause she could ... and when the time was right Ireland spanked the old girl and took back what was stolen ...

slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:54:28 PM)
Philo,are you referring to the formation of the Irish Republic or to more recent events?

Darias -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:56:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Ahh,but therein lies the rub Darias,England never sits down at that table if the worlds most sucessful terrorist (Michael Collins) hadn't forced her there at the point of a gun. ...wrong. First off, it's Britain, England is just part of the UK. Secondly that's not how the peace process started. While i agree with you much of the time Mike, that post was just ignorant. [:@] leave it Philo ... I like most other accept that due to spin control and propaganda .. the original IRA who fought and died to * bring the old girl to the table * have been painted with the same brush as the current crowd who fight less for country and more for priest . I for one have heard all the old arguments before ... at the end of the day the story goes .. Britain got spanked and the republic of ireland was born, and like her sister the United States .. has prospered ever since with a monarchy to support Seriously guys lets not do this ... as much as i detest politics when its from the US i detest the politics to do with the north even more ... and as much as i would love my nation to be the entire island it once was i can never condone the attrocities that have been carried out with that vague excuse .. especially when the real reason for fighting was because of which hand people crossed themselves with and where the head of their church lived

JustDarkness -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:57:40 PM)
it is justified when you feel to, but I would wait till more people feel the same ;)

meatcleaver -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 12:58:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Philo,are you referring to the formation of the Irish Republic or to more recent events? England hasn't been a country for over 300 years, longer than the US has actually been a country.

philosophy -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:02:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Philo,are you referring to the formation of the Irish Republic or to more recent events? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_(Irish_leader) ...i was thinking of more recent events, and was therefore wrong in that regard. However, you were wrong in naming England as the country Eire took independence from and i still take issue with the phrase 'point of the gun'.

slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:02:46 PM)
Okay I will accept the UK thing(though I think it is splitting hairs)but please explain to me how Churchill is brought to the negotiating table without the efforts of the IRA and Michael Collins?..

Darias -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:07:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay I will accept the UK thing(though I think it is splitting hairs)but please explain to me how Churchill is brought to the negotiating table without the efforts of the IRA and Michael Collins?.. Mike i still dont see your point ? Britain invaded and occupied Ireland ... the Irish people took it back . their tactics were perfect for what they had .. an untried untrained under equipped militia their timing was perfect ... a time when Britain could barely afford to occupy never mind quell an uprising properly ... your complaint is what ? that the people of Ireland somehow cheated robbed extorted or bullied Britain into giving up what they never could have owned ?

slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:09:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darias wouldn't calling Micheal Collins a terrorist be the same as calling a bunch of guys known as the framers terrorists ? or is it cause the big fella fought with the tactics that were at his disposal ? you expected ireland to strap on a bunch of pretty green coats and march into an empty field and face down rifles and cannon .... come on dude ... admit it ... good old great Britain grabbed land for hundreds of years simply cause she could ... and when the time was right Ireland spanked the old girl and took back what was stolen ... Darias,it was in no way meant as an insult.Collins merely used the methods available to him and his cause,and to be fair by any definition it was terrorism.The object was terror not to raise an army and fight set-piece warfare,it was for the Irish the only means available due to England's subversion of and control of the infrastructure of an occupied land.America's situation owing to distance and size was of course much different and allowed for the raising of an Army and te ability eventually to defeat England in a traditional way.

meatcleaver -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:12:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay I will accept the UK thing(though I think it is splitting hairs)but please explain to me how Churchill is brought to the negotiating table without the efforts of the IRA and Michael Collins?.. Parliament was deeply divided over independence for Ireland. Many British MPs wanted to give Ireland independence for years. Prime Minister Gladstone would have gladly given Ireland independence as early as the 1870s but politics kept getting in the way. The uprising was no big thing that couldn't be put down but it was just one more thing that convinced the those conservatives that wanted to hold on to Ireland.

slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:13:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darias quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay I will accept the UK thing(though I think it is splitting hairs)but please explain to me how Churchill is brought to the negotiating table without the efforts of the IRA and Michael Collins?.. Mike i still dont see your point ? Britain invaded and occupied Ireland ... the Irish people took it back . their tactics were perfect for what they had .. an untried untrained under equipped militia their timing was perfect ... a time when Britain could barely afford to occupy never mind quell an uprising properly ... your complaint is what ? that the people of Ireland somehow cheated robbed extorted or bullied Britain into giving up what they never could have owned ? Darias,perhaps my use of the word terrorist is the cause of the confusion.I am a proud Irish-American who considers Collins a hero ,betrayed in the end by the long fellow De Velera.Today of course the word conjurs up images of planes flying into buildings,Collins employed terror in a much more targeted way,avoiding whenever possible the blood of innocents.....terror all the same was the weapon.

Lorr47 -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:14:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Well luckily the Constitution supports God-given rights. .....well what is a 'God-given right'? Name three of them. Then explain how God gave them. I am an atheist but I recognize my rights when I see them. If a Supreme Court justice reassures me by saying that altho he cannot define porn, he will know porn when he sees it, then I can know my rights when I see them. Please no definitions. I still have a headache after that thread about atheism.

slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:16:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Okay I will accept the UK thing(though I think it is splitting hairs)but please explain to me how Churchill is brought to the negotiating table without the efforts of the IRA and Michael Collins?.. Parliament was deeply divided over independence for Ireland. Many British MPs wanted to give Ireland independence for years. Prime Minister Gladstone would have gladly given Ireland independence as early as the 1870s but politics kept getting in the way. The uprising was no big thing that couldn't be put down but it was just one more thing that convinced the those conservatives that wanted to hold on to Ireland. Granted certain progressive voices had allways advocated a fairer outcome to the Irish problem.But Churchill was not going to the bargaining table till he had no choice..

Darias -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 1:17:14 PM)
the part i disagree with mike is that it was terrorism ...and heres why Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] There is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Most common definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants. not even the British history books will state outright that Collins and his * flying columns * targeted non combatants ... for the simple reason that there were none ... Collins operated mainly in Ireland not the UK as the current IRA have ... his targets were occupying forces not people because for the most part the people in Ireland were Irish there are quite a few books and even more websites on Collins and the original IRA . Id suggest making sure the distinction between the Original freedom fighters and the current terrorists be kept clear

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