RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (Full Version)

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Darias -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 3:32:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406



If you dis-arm the populace, the threat of revolution is no longer realistic and that makes leaders feel infallible and undefeatable (By the way "dis-arm" there also includes arming them so poorly as to not be a threat).


wouldnt this suggest allowing the sale of m1 abrams tanks ( yeah i know you guys have newer ones now but damned if i know the names ) apache helicopters , harrier jets , nuclear submarines , tomahawk missiles , P90`s , etc ... to make sure the populace could if need be stand up to the government and what it could mobilise and thus keep the threat real ?



NeedToUseYou -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 3:35:02 PM)

I think rebellion would be justified now. I mean seriously, the government does not serve the interests of the people. It has violated every aspect of the rules, we all agreed upon, the constitution. It has stolen the peoples money and given it to select groups (financials, big corps). It has a proven track record of deceiving the US public in order to garner support for unjustified wars. The list is endless really. Oh, yeah, and the machines we use to vote, are complete crap, there was a documentary on HBO, to where it took a hacker all of a half an hour to break it and reprogram it, to give the result he wanted. So, the government can't even be trusted with forming a trustworthy means of voting. What the hell.

Ummm, better question would be, what reason do the US people have not to revolt.



Satyr6406 -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 3:36:44 PM)

Yes, indeed it would.
 
You see, while some wish to define "militia" as the armed forces. That is NOT what a militia is and our second amendment reads: "A well regulated MILITIA, being necessary ...". Membership in the militia is actually barred to those who are elected officials or in the US military.
 
I repeat: Jefferson et al. intended for us to be able to rise up against a government that we believed to be oppressive any time our little hearts desired.



celticlord2112 -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 3:41:52 PM)

quote:

wouldnt this suggest allowing the sale of m1 abrams tanks ( yeah i know you guys have newer ones now but damned if i know the names ) apache helicopters , harrier jets , nuclear submarines , tomahawk missiles , P90`s , etc ... to make sure the populace could if need be stand up to the government and what it could mobilise and thus keep the threat real ?

To me it would.  A point I have argued at length in other threads.



pahunkboy -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 3:59:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

The two biggest losses to the British Empire, those of America and Ireland initially came about through armed insurrection, so I suppose it might be seen as a good thing. I think to lose one colony might be seen as understandable, but to lose both looks like carelesness. Only We and the Romans know what it's like.


the irony is- that the US is now under Brittish control-  ie the bank of England.   1913- federal reserve.  study the easy india company...  same tactics.

we must derail this globalism.   

if obama does not act as a brittish agent- the brittish empire will dispose of him.  there is a reason why the midleclasss is reduced and the trainlines are gutted    

the current phaze is to strip the US out of any remaining sovernty.  beware of pso ops.   think about how rothchild made his moneyy by  a false rumour that England lost a battle...so everyone sold stock...

there is a logic in wars- the bank of englad finances both sides of it.

beware of psy ops/

at least Ireland fought back.  The US is too cowardly these days



rexrgisformidoni -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 4:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I think rebellion would be justified now. I mean seriously, the government does not serve the interests of the people. It has violated every aspect of the rules, we all agreed upon, the constitution. It has stolen the peoples money and given it to select groups (financials, big corps). It has a proven track record of deceiving the US public in order to garner support for unjustified wars. The list is endless really. Oh, yeah, and the machines we use to vote, are complete crap, there was a documentary on HBO, to where it took a hacker all of a half an hour to break it and reprogram it, to give the result he wanted. So, the government can't even be trusted with forming a trustworthy means of voting. What the hell.

Ummm, better question would be, what reason do the US people have not to revolt.



I agree wholeheartedly. The sad thing is, people are too apathetic to do any sort of damn thing at all. Most would rather watch TMZ and football (not that I hate football, I love it) than actively vote out the assholes who are the true threat to this country. Tyranny of the minority is the true state of affairs, our lives are dictated by a minute portion the the people, this minority ignores us all. In such times, is another minority with the guts to actively do something a bad thing? I think I've said enough, I am fairly certain I'll get banned or something. Out






pahunkboy -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 4:03:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

in the case of  Bush, the public were able to use the ballot box.



      It didn't even require a ballot, Polite.  George Bush will leave office automatically.  We have quite a good system for peaceful change, within the established process.  As long as that process is working, I cannot see a need for armed rebellion. 

      The vague threat of it does tend to oil the gears, though. [;)]



And Alan Greenspan is "shocked"...  our money has been taken!   and to that- if the public really knew the full extent of it- there would be violence.

We could learn from the Irish- and Icelanders..



DomKen -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 4:09:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I raised this question in MusicMystery's "well regulated" topic, and he suggested it merited its own topic.

So I throw the question out to one and all: At what point does it become right/prudent/proper to take up arms against the government and rebel?  Can any injustice by government be so reprehensible as to mandate the government's removal by force of arms?


And we see a return of a meme that was thoroughly discredited in Oklahoma City one morning.

If you are a right winger and you think its time to rebel simply because you're on the outs politically you're wrong.

Rebellion is justified when a minority forces its rule on the majority. Rebellion is justified when the majority threatens the life and safety of a minority. Rebellion is justified when foreign troops are used to oppress the population. Rebellion is justified when the government sends a generation of young people off to some foreign land to die for no good reason.

Rebellion is not justified because you and the jabberheads on shortwave think something justifying rebellion might be about to happen. Rebellion is not justified simply because a free and fair election did not go your way.



celticlord2112 -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 4:21:48 PM)

quote:

Rebellion is justified when the majority threatens the life and safety of a minority.

Why just "life and safety"?  Why not liberty?

There have been several reports of rioting and destruction of private property following the passage of Proposition 8 in California--while this was not organized "rebellion", is such violence justifiable because the majority of people in that state choose to write into their constitution a definition of marriage?



slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 4:44:57 PM)

No CL,rioting and destruction of property is not justified,peacful protests and a redress in the courts in this case would be justified.The minority has the means to seek redress and protection from the tyranny of the majority.Hence no need for violence.



DesFIP -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:18:16 PM)

I go by the thoughts in this document: http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html



FirmhandKY -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:26:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

 Governments will ... always degrade into bureaucracies and tyrannies.


I've taken the liberty of correcting your words.  [:D]

Firm



BamaD -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:28:38 PM)

The U S has a revolution every four years, at the ballot box.  When we are not allowed to change the government peacfully then the tactics would change.   Jefferson said we need a good revolution every 20 years, and we have had, via the ballot box.  The one exception was 1860 when a large segment of the population felt that they were being subjegated and that their votes would not mean anything.  The tyrany of the majority.  I am neither defending or condemming them merely pointing out a fact.



BamaD -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:30:25 PM)

How many tanks or airplanes did the IRA have?



FirmhandKY -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:31:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

Armed struggle is justifiable at any time when the government does not honor my God given rights.



Like the God given rights of the 9/11 hijackers?


If you define rebellion in this thread as an act or state of armed resistance to one's government, then the 9/11 hijackers were not "in rebellion'.

Firm



slvemike4u -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:36:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The U S has a revolution every four years, at the ballot box.  When we are not allowed to change the government peacfully then the tactics would change.   Jefferson said we need a good revolution every 20 years, and we have had, via the ballot box.  The one exception was 1860 when a large segment of the population felt that they were being subjegated and that their votes would not mean anything.  The tyrany of the majority.  I am neither defending or condemming them merely pointing out a fact.
Well BamaD I have no wish to refight/argue the Civil war either ,I feel I must point out an error in your post.In 1860 the segment of the population you referrence in fact took part in that election.Only after that fair election did they decide they could no longer be part of The Union.A case of the Southern States deciding the outcome was unbearable after the fact.



JackHammer2000 -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:37:41 PM)

Rebellion is ONLY justified if you win. 

And then, it is called a "revolution" and it's members are hailed as the "true patriots."

If you lose, you are a branded a rebel spy and a traitor, and you are sent to your cell aboard the Death Star to await further torture via Interrogation Droid, and ultimately, execution upon orders by the Grand Moff in charge of the station.  Your only hope at this point, is to have your long-lost incestuous brother rescue you somehow.



FirmhandKY -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:51:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Armed struggle is justifiable at any time when the government does not honor my God given rights.



..in the interests of clarity, what do you mean by 'God-given rights'?


Interesting question, philo.  I wondered if I would be attacked, or if someone would ask in earnest.  Thank you for an earnest request.

I phrased the point the way I did deliberately: "God-given right" because I believe one of the most insidious methods used by people to gain control over other people is by the use of the meme that rights originate from a government. 

I strongly disagree with this formulation of thought, but it begs the question of where "rights" originate ... or even if they actually do.

But in my mind, I have heard, and see no other formulation which will effectively stand up to constant attempts to define "rights" as anything other than inherent to each individual.

As Lorr47 said in his post 38, he recognizes em when he sees em ...

I agree with him, but it's not a very effective political or rhetorical argument, and over time, without a clear basis of understanding ... he will lose that argument, and "rights" will become something that the government deigns to give you.

From such a position, it is then just a few steps away from a government doing things and making laws at the expense of the minority for the betterment of the majority.  Tyranny of the majority, in other words.

I much prefer the position that an individual has rights that are from outside the governments control, and that any act that a government takes to restrict or reduce those rights must be won with the full understanding or conditional trust of individuals, which (as I said) is temporary, revocable, and conditional.

"God-given rights" is not necessarily a religious proclamation.  To me, it is a required logical and rhetorical position to protect the individual from tyranny.  It is one of the reasons that I've said several times that I am "Christian friendly".

I'd be interested in hearing another argument that someone believes can successfully fulfill the same function.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 5:58:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Rebellion is justified when a minority forces its rule on the majority. Rebellion is justified when the majority threatens the life and safety of a minority.


Interesting.  I see no formulation that rebellion is justified when the majority forces it rule on a minority.

Is the majority always right?

Firm



MzMia -> RE: When is rebellion justifiable, or is it never justifiable? (11/16/2008 6:03:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I raised this question in MusicMystery's "well regulated" topic, and he suggested it merited its own topic.

So I throw the question out to one and all: At what point does it become right/prudent/proper to take up arms against the government and rebel?  Can any injustice by government be so reprehensible as to mandate the government's removal by force of arms?



Great topic!!!
It is going to take me a while to read most of the responses.
But the first thought that came to my mind is, of course!
Where would America be, if we had not fought the
American Revolution  War?
[:D]
Let's see IF we had not fought and WON that war, we would be
part of Great Britain.

 American Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



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