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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 8:23:08 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

To mention only the most obvious fallacy of Ellen's post: membership.  The BNP do not admit black members - unlike UKIP - and they also strongly oppose homosexuality.  UKIP absorbed the people stranded by the Tories' dive for Labour's centrist politics and it should be no surprise they are social dinosaurs but they haven't got a stated racist philosophy at the heart of their mission.  If they don't allow black people to join, where's the "hearsay" element?

Anyone is free to be a bigot but it's great knowing who they are so I can choose whether to give them some of their own medicine.  At least I dislike them for who they are and not for a coincidental element of their make-up. 

Incidentally, there are very few London addresses on the list which suggests that when people actually know each other rather than believing the Daily Heil etc, racist views are far less prevalent.


The BNP has Jewish members and trans members RL. This caused an uproar on Stormfront a while back - yes I keep an eye on it. I am sure they would be careful not to prevent a black person from joining, for the obvious legal reasons, but then what black person in their right mind would put themselves in such a party? (although one can say the same for the Jewish and trans members).

Please state where on the BNP website anything is written which is overtly and hostilely racist? Same for UKIP. We should not hold either to a different standard after all and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If we're to regard one as bad then we must hold the other as bad given their dessert preparation is alike.

Its incongruous to say that UKIP are social dinosaurs when for the same behaviour the BNP are condemned as evil.

E

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 8:24:33 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

In 2006 during the World Cup several councils tried to make their tenants obtain permits to fly flags. The media frenzy by the tabloids led to a relaxation of the rules.
You would still need council permission to erect a flagpole outside your house, even in the back garden your neighbour can have it hauled down for blocking their sunlight.
Some war veterans in particular cannot understand how pride in the flag they fought for is anti social.
My neighbour erects a 7 foot TV in the back garden every football match, halloween, Christmas, firework night, fortnightly barbecue, birthday etc and plays God Save The Queen at full blast when drunk.
If only he could have a flag instead...


Again, kind of true, but not exactly.  You can erect a flag pole up to a certain height and there has to be specific distance between multiple ones to get through it without permission.  And it must not obstruct waterways, roads and drainage.
 
the.dark.

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 8:24:50 AM   
MadAxeman


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Why do I have to post with criticism attached? I was trying to be dispassionate about an emotive subject and provide some context.
I saw plenty of flags hanging out of windows, on cars etc. There were some councils that tried to make money or political capital out of requiring permits to display.
How many people do you think the BNP tries to recruit that are not English?

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 8:27:02 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

In 2006 during the World Cup several councils tried to make their tenants obtain permits to fly flags. The media frenzy by the tabloids led to a relaxation of the rules.
You would still need council permission to erect a flagpole outside your house, even in the back garden your neighbour can have it hauled down for blocking their sunlight.
Some war veterans in particular cannot understand how pride in the flag they fought for is anti social.
My neighbour erects a 7 foot TV in the back garden every football match, halloween, Christmas, firework night, fortnightly barbecue, birthday etc and plays God Save The Queen at full blast when drunk.
If only he could have a flag instead...


You see though - the flag is only "bad" because of its associations with the far right.

Its no good to wish ill on them or to provoke or enact ill on them; that only makes them more hard line. Ignoring them just lets it fester and grow.

We need to debate them publically, open them to scrutiny of their ideas and why theyre just so much disgruntled revenge fantasies by insecure people who think the world owes them something and blame others for their going short on that account.

E

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 8:29:40 AM   
MadAxeman


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I agree, open discussion is the way to puncture their ideas. They will not be going away any time soon. Therefore they must evolve.

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 8:41:26 AM   
LadyEllen


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But the problem is that they are evolving in a vacuum is it not? Unchallenged, never debated, they are left free to tell it from their side only - which of course being simplistic is appealing to many. They rarely if ever preach on racist lines though - its always about why the ordinary person is being screwed over, which of course corresponds with the experience of said ordinary person - after all few believe theyre getting a good deal, and why their policies are the answer. No one bothers to debate their answer so its left to fester and grow and evolve.

I would guess that 90%+ of Brits find the idea of racism abhorrent and/or ridiculous - and I would suspect that this proportion would also be found in that now infamous membership list. We shouldnt pretend everyone who joins or votes BNP is a racist by any stretch - yes there is a hardcore who are and who should be dealt with as RL suggests, but this general confrontation this general condemnation, only serves to harden those who for reasons quite other than race have found a home in the BNP. The British are a bolshy lot after all - pick on them and they resist further.

E



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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 11:24:01 AM   
meatcleaver


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I was reading that in some wards in Rotherham (I think) where the BNP got a couple of seats, statiscally, some black and/or Asian people must have voted BNP. This was put down to an anti-Polish/eastern European vote.

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 2:24:44 PM   
RealityLicks


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Talk about barking up the wrong flagpole.  Flying the national flag is not illegal.  There were antiquated regulations which prohibited any flag to be flown without council permission but these were an attempt to control advertising and Labour gladly removed them from the statute book.  There is no record of anyone ever being prosecuted for flying the tens of thousands of flags displayed during national celebrations or sporting occasions and during the last Olympics every British medal winner appeared draped in one.  Flags are openly sold and freely distributed at events like the Golden Jubilee, etc.  You're all suffering from tabloid-inspired paranoia.

Edit:  Planning regulations for flag-poles are probably quite wise but the law says everyone is entitled to a vertical one if it meets safety requirements. 

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 11/20/2008 2:27:47 PM >

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 2:29:26 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

There were some councils that tried to make money or political capital out of requiring permits to display.


That would be strange.  Would you mind naming any or all of those councils?

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 2:47:14 PM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Why do I have to post with criticism attached? I was trying to be dispassionate about an emotive subject and provide some context.
I saw plenty of flags hanging out of windows, on cars etc.


An example...

It's a commonly held belief that immigrants are favoured for social housing but very little research is required to show that that is quite wrong.  I can see how trading on this anxiety would bolster tumbling newspaper sales and even recruit the gullible to support the BNP.  But by stating this as though it were fact and not simply a bit of mass hysteria, you abandon impartiality and go further than merely reporting BNP philosophy but inadvertently validate it.


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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 7:39:16 PM   
MadAxeman


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Now you are being intentionally offensive.

< Message edited by MadAxeman -- 11/20/2008 8:17:39 PM >


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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 8:42:43 PM   
LadyEllen


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I was thinking about all this and the national security clearance form I filled in last weekend for my police advisory role (same form they use for MI5 by the way, which is a surprise)

The form asks whether you have ever been affiliated with any groups that seek to undermine Parliamentary democracy, as well as terrorism, crime et al. Would one be expected to tick yes if one were a member of the BNP?

And then I got to thinking about a certain party whose recent actions in government might lead one to believe they were of much greater concern than the BNP with regard to the continuing freedoms and rights of UK citizenship.

A party which plans to enforce by law the maintenance of records of all electronic communications for police use, regardless of evidence of any offence being prepared or executed, in a move that puts the former DDR to shame
A party which plans to enforce identity cards on all citizens, despite every reason advanced for them having been demolished one by one, and then changes its ideas to enforce them first on asylum seekers in a dreadful pandering to xenophobia and racism 
A party which wishes to detain people without charge for 42 days, in an amazing undoing of habeas corpus

Labour members and activists must by definition support such moves; is their continued membership of this party not adequate proof of such? And is not such proof sufficient for them to be branded as even more dangerous to the country than any half wit BNP member?

E

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/20/2008 9:04:38 PM   
MadAxeman


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Fathers For Justice would probably qualify, which is a bit silly.

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/21/2008 1:36:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Why do I have to post with criticism attached? I was trying to be dispassionate about an emotive subject and provide some context.
I saw plenty of flags hanging out of windows, on cars etc.


An example...

It's a commonly held belief that immigrants are favoured for social housing but very little research is required to show that that is quite wrong.  I can see how trading on this anxiety would bolster tumbling newspaper sales and even recruit the gullible to support the BNP.  But by stating this as though it were fact and not simply a bit of mass hysteria, you abandon impartiality and go further than merely reporting BNP philosophy but inadvertently validate it.




The House of Lords did a report on this and came to the conclusion whites were being denied social housing in favour of immigrants, not because immigrants were getting something they weren't entitled to, they were getting what they were entitled to. However, there were not enough resources to go round and the staff had to make choices and they chose the immigrants so they wouldn't be accused of being racist. The Lords noted that extremists parties misrepreasent this situation but admited it was fertile ground for extremists and suggested the government should act quickly and put in more resources to solve the problem. However, the government hasn't and Labour, Libs and Tories don't need any votes from the the white underclass to get into power and obviously don't want to represent them so they have left the white underclass with no one to represent them but parties like the BNP.

In fact no one represents the poor anymore since Labour supposedly a left party that you think would naturally represent them, is busy making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/21/2008 1:40:34 AM >


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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/21/2008 3:12:12 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Why do I have to post with criticism attached? I was trying to be dispassionate about an emotive subject and provide some context.
I saw plenty of flags hanging out of windows, on cars etc.


An example...

It's a commonly held belief that immigrants are favoured for social housing but very little research is required to show that that is quite wrong.  I can see how trading on this anxiety would bolster tumbling newspaper sales and even recruit the gullible to support the BNP.  But by stating this as though it were fact and not simply a bit of mass hysteria, you abandon impartiality and go further than merely reporting BNP philosophy but inadvertently validate it.




The House of Lords did a report on this and came to the conclusion whites were being denied social housing in favour of immigrants, not because immigrants were getting something they weren't entitled to, they were getting what they were entitled to. However, there were not enough resources to go round and the staff had to make choices and they chose the immigrants so they wouldn't be accused of being racist. The Lords noted that extremists parties misrepreasent this situation but admited it was fertile ground for extremists and suggested the government should act quickly and put in more resources to solve the problem. However, the government hasn't and Labour, Libs and Tories don't need any votes from the the white underclass to get into power and obviously don't want to represent them so they have left the white underclass with no one to represent them but parties like the BNP.

In fact no one represents the poor anymore since Labour supposedly a left party that you think would naturally represent them, is busy making the rich richer and the poor poorer.


I understand this, as I have been through the mill with the social housing and it's points system, but in another city.  A city where for some reason the city took in some 1500 immigrants when it already had a severe housing problem for it's existing inhabitants. What came to happen was houses that were deemed unfit for habitation were quickly made habitable and these homes dished out to the incomers whilst the existing people on the housing list stayed on the housing list and even found themselves further back down the list and I am talking families here not just individuals.

There was in that city a rising anger directed towards the incomers, BNP was doing well, many I knew were turning to BNP as a response to the injustice they felt, they were not racists, they generally had no problem with other races, but they felt no one except them is representing their issues. The priority for a father is to provide a home for his family and the usual social and political machines were not helping, the support they came to have for BNP was in reality a protest, a venting of frustration over the whole mess.

What did irk most on the housing list was the situation with the 'unfit for habitation' houses, they being fit for habitation, there would be no one on the housing list, as these houses exceeded the number of people that needed them. Nothing was being done to these houses until the incomers came, in which the money was suddenly made available to make fit the least worse and often they were rennovated to a higher standard than the existing habitable properties and the size of the house was not matched to the incoming applicants family status, a single person often got a three bedroom house. Yet more injustice when families were crammed into much smaller houses and families increasing in size could not move to a larger house.

Myself and my small family unit, we got given  an unmodernized 1920's built apartment, complete with no heating and the original gas lighting in situ, which I ripped out. That place was forever dark, cold and damp, no one was happy, but we had somewhere to live which was better than what some unfortunate families didn't have.

So yes, given the situation I experienced as one of the homeless but working, I can see very well how BNP was  doing well in those areas. Labour party affiliation was dwindling rapidly.


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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/21/2008 3:50:12 AM   
RealityLicks


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I've just realised: I have a 12" penis.

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/21/2008 5:31:21 AM   
LadyEllen


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To be clear RL - are you calling Aneirin a liar, or something worse (ie what you implied about MA?)

Sorry, but youre illustrating in one easy move why the BNP is gaining ground - a refusal to listen, and that goes as much for a refusal to listen to perceptions as it does to listen to whatever evidence is presented contrary to the official position.

Given that such accounts may be readily discovered all across the UK - either all these people are liars or they are all independently deluded or they are all BNP types?

E

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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/21/2008 6:01:43 AM   
Aneirin


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Well,' Reality' Licks, what I have written here is reality as I experienced it. I have no reason to lie as I do not have an agenda in this case.

I was for eight years a council house inhabitant and prior to that homeless, B & B accomodation for long periods of time is not fun that I can tell you. Temporary housing, moving from one hole to the next, no furniture, nothing except for what you can carry and furthermore, the attitude of some of the housing suppliers. One thing I learned was to keep valuables on oneself, as often one came back to find the door open. The homeless despite what you read in newspapers, do not have it easy and I do see why they turn to drugs and drink, because the feeling is of hopelessness. A kind of hopelessness that comes after so many prospects have been dashed

But having been through all that, one thing I do have is empathy for those now in that situation. The much vaunted public safety net that is supposed to be there to catch the falling is largely useless, funding and politics as always are the problem.

I do see the problem as worse for incommers to this country, they have left everything behind save themself for better prospects, they are very brave and especially brave to enter into a situation where they receive nothing but hate because they are an incommer, they become the scapegoats for our failing society. The reality is it is the system that is failing not the people, but the system is faceless, it is with people, there has always got to be someone to blame.

Like everything in life, one can only draw on the experience they have had. Perhaps it is RL that you have experienced different, if not, then you are relying on the reports of others and who says what they say is not a situation  that makes you think you have a twelve inch cock ?

BNP support is not always about racism.


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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/21/2008 6:15:12 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

BNP support is not always about racism.



Out of curiosty, what are the alternatives? What is the underlying appeal of the British National Party?


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RE: .BNP Members Leak. - 11/21/2008 6:36:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks



I've just realised: I have a 12" penis.


You could phone the house of Lords and order a copy of the report or go to your local MP who should have a copy and if s/he hasn't, s/he should be able to obtain one for you. From what I understand a lot of the report was compiled from data from studies in Barking and Dagenham as well as northern towns.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/21/2008 6:38:11 AM >


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