what is it about unions?

what is it about unions? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:21:15 AM)
OK - so what is it that so riles so many Americans about unions? Is it the notion of labour having any rights? Is it the idea of labour coming together to demand rights? Is it the idea of labour coming together to defend their rights collectively? Is it the advancement of rights through collective action? Or is it "other"? E

Aneirin -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:38:37 AM)
Unions, oh, I was thinking onions. I have never been a member of a union, never seen the need, if things don't go well in employment, I just seek other employment. Every job I have had, it has just been there to work, the social things I keep out of, as my work and lifestyle are two entirely different things.

subrob1967 -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:40:02 AM)
It's other.

celticlord2112 -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:47:39 AM)
For me, it is "other". Unions are as antithetical to free-market capitalism as are monopoly, oligopoly, and other distortions of the market place. Unions are damaging because the rest on the fiction of "labour". Any treatment of people en bloc is a fallacy, and ultimately foolish. People are not "labor" and "management", people are human beings, each unique and individual. Unions gloss over this and render all workers not only putatively equal but also interchangeable. Thus personal excellence is undercut, personal initiative for self-improvement is undercut, and the true value of the individual person's efforts obscured. We see this in the current deplorable state of the US-owned auto industry. While the CEOs of GM, Ford, and Chrysler have much to account for in their stewardship of these companies, the UAW is also directly responsible for those companies' high and non-competitive labor costs, creating much of the extraordinary cash drains those companies are currently experiencing. Unions are an economic harm, because by their very nature they bring all their members down to the level of their least capable members--they hinder productivity and efficiency, the necessary elements of any well run and thus profitable enterprise.

pahunkboy -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:48:03 AM)
That depends on your age and location. Im 45, I view unions as good. I grew up in Chicago where unions are good. I live in PA, which is a right to work state, (despite having an occupational prividge tax) seeing how business operates in recent years, I dont know what to think. On automakers- I 1st thought- I assumed the retirees were dead- like why are there so many? well- many were paid to retire early. globalists find a way to produce and less then cost of production. the US has declined very year since 1968. so while sinus tablets and batteries are cheaper- alot of costs are then not paid into the government to perform essential services... THE SOLUTION? kill ALL globalists. and stop the non extradition treaty of Dubai where they are going for safe haven

pahunkboy -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:50:14 AM)
and yet how is the mode of globalization NOT a collective action????????????????????????????????? ie union.

TNstepsout -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:54:19 AM)
For me it's not that workers have demanded and gotten certain rights, but that they are now out of control with their demands to the detriment of some industries. There are laws that protect some unions so stringently that companies are prohibited from doing certain jobs/tasks unless a union member is doing the job at union wages. Sometimes these tasks are quite menial and simple, but fall under jobs protected by unions. It causes a great deal of extra time and expense for companies.

mc1234 -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 5:58:06 AM)
Other. Here's an example: Because of the incredibly strong teacher's union in our state, a teacher is 'tenured' after three years of teaching at one school and can NEVER be fired unless they've like tacklegroped a student in the hallway AND made a death threat. Which keeps poor teachers in the system with very little recourse for disciplinary actions. Or when teachers go on strike - that makes me nuts. Or the unions, similar to the state unions, which provide such spectacular health coverage that the members don't even pay co-pays when they visit the doctors and drive the cost of living in the state and the state budget through the roof. I see no problem with asking the members to pay $5 copays so that the rest of the plan's costs are driven down for the taxpayers. It's when the unions go above and beyond .. beyond safety, beyond protection, and don't look at the overall picture and get incredibly greedy - that's when I have a problem with it. There was definitely a need for it when they began, and probably is a need for them now. But corruption is rampant in some and I find it offensive when public money is wasted.

DesFIP -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 6:00:28 AM)
It's that they get paid about half again as much as non union for exactly the same work. In New York City, the law says that any plumbing repairs must be done by a union plumber. A homeowner is not allowed to change a washer on a leaky faucet. Does this make sense to you, that you need to pay someone time to and from his shop at over $30 an hour to do what would cost you just a couple of dollars in parts and a few minutes free time? The ex was a nonunion truck driver. He went to deliver somewhere where the union drivers were picketing and threatening, his response was to ask if he could get a union card and get their pay rates. The answer was no, they weren't allowing anyone into the union.

LadyEllen -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 6:01:00 AM)
We had a similar problem in the 70s TNS; the unions through collective action could stop the country and so had control over the country. They didnt improve things, their agenda was hard left and their tactics were to bully all workers into membership and obedience - but then neither did the bosses who were also busily ruining the economy. Thatcher came along and declared war on the unions (particularly the miners) - but went too far, with a hard right political action to deny workers' rights. My opinion is that its time for an end to such confrontation; we all lose eventually. E

Dnomyar -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 6:13:34 AM)
Unions have their place. I worked in shops with and without a union. I have been at places where your supervisor would come up to you and say your fired this man offered to work cheaper than you. I could tell you a lot of horror storys about shops without a union. A union is good for helping set rules in the workplace. My place of work does not have a union and the plant workers are constantly screwed over by management. The labor board and Osha is here constantly because of it. A couple of places that I have worked without a union were the best places to work because management worked along with the workers. The big 3 hires slaves not workers.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 7:36:08 AM)
I love unions. My father worked at a union oil refinery since before I was born and retired 2 years ago. Because of the union, I grew up in a decent 3 bedroom house in a middle class neighborhood. A friend of mine since childhood has worked as a drill press operator at the same plastics plant for 8 years and gets paid less than $10/hr. Despite being a stable employee at the same company for that long, she doesn't even make enough to buy a house. This is what companies do to workers that aren't in a union. One reason for the shrinking middle class is outsourcing, the other is the decrease in unions. I'm tired of seeing companies take advantage of hard working people. Anybody who has worked for the same company for years should have a high enough income to buy a house.

ThundersCry -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 7:37:29 AM)
And the slaves make a great living... The only problem I had with working under the contract of a union was when..new people were hired and they had very few work ethics... Just kinda stuck with the goofs... Oh well...those goofs now pay me to stay away from THAT job...

DarkSteven -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 7:45:19 AM)
I'm straddling the fence. Pre-union working conditions were deplorable for the working man. Unions have helped square things between management and labor historically. Notably, as union employees won concessions, they "trickled down" to become possibilities for nonunion employees in other companies. Things have changed now. Union employees get pay/benefit packages that are far richer than nonunion ones do at other companies. The argument's been proposed that the unionized employees' compensation is sinking their companies. IMO, it's a feeling of entitlement that's ascribed to the unions but it not limited to them. The greed of management (in unionized companies as well as many nonunion ones), bonuses that are given to awful executives that are supposedly tied to performance, welfare including corporate welfare, bailouts, affirmative action, etc. There seems to be a big shift away from pay for performance, and the unions are one of the most visible manifestations.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 7:49:33 AM)
My Sir was also taken advantage of by a non-union factory. When I found out he only made $8.15/hr after working there for 10 years, I was furious. They should have been paying him him a minimum of $15/hr.

MissIsis -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 7:54:12 AM)
Unions used to be much stronger. Today, not so much for most of them. I've worked in both, & generally, the non-union places had things set up so the workers did have some voice, & were protected, which is not always the case. In my experience, union pits employees against the employer, & the atmosphere has been them vs us, whereas I haven't seen that as much in non-union places that I have worked at. The thing about them is that everyone gets paid by seniority, not by how productive they are. People who are working twice as hard, are not rewarded any more than the people who try to get by with doing as little as possible. And the people doing as little as possible, no how to work the system, so as to keep their jobs. The good thing, though, is many of our laws that are in place to protect us, were brought about by the work the unions put in for that purpose. I think many of us had some benefit by them being in existance. Many workers who worked for non-union companies were able to get working wages because of the competition from the unions that required a decent working wage. We have, though, watched their power dwindle away. And history shows us, that there was corruption in some of the unions as well.

rulemylife -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 7:54:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 For me, it is "other". Unions are as antithetical to free-market capitalism as are monopoly, oligopoly, and other distortions of the market place. Unions are damaging because the rest on the fiction of "labour". Any treatment of people en bloc is a fallacy, and ultimately foolish. People are not "labor" and "management", people are human beings, each unique and individual. Unions gloss over this and render all workers not only putatively equal but also interchangeable. Thus personal excellence is undercut, personal initiative for self-improvement is undercut, and the true value of the individual person's efforts obscured. We see this in the current deplorable state of the US-owned auto industry. While the CEOs of GM, Ford, and Chrysler have much to account for in their stewardship of these companies, the UAW is also directly responsible for those companies' high and non-competitive labor costs, creating much of the extraordinary cash drains those companies are currently experiencing. Unions are an economic harm, because by their very nature they bring all their members down to the level of their least capable members--they hinder productivity and efficiency, the necessary elements of any well run and thus profitable enterprise. Absolutely. If only we could return to a simpler time when employees were happy to work 12 hours a day, seven days a week to eke out a meager existence for their families. If only we could go back to teaching our children the value of hard work by having to send them into the coal mines by the age of 12 or 13 to support the family. Those were the days when America was great! It brings a tear to my eye to think how those awful unions have ruined this country.

ThundersCry -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 7:55:15 AM)
exactly... the rich stay rich and the poor stay...poor.

Termyn8or -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 8:07:46 AM)
Many years ago there was alot of exploitation going on. This will happen in a society such as our's. As managment forever strives for higher profits, anyone, and indeed anything is expendable. Managment fares quite well when there are more people than jobs. When the job is easy to learn, such as running a punch press, managment holds all the trump cards. Normally wages are determined by a couple of factors. One is that the employee produces more than he costs, generally three times. The other main factor is replacability. If there were more jobs, enough to go around actually, managment loses it's teeth. I have heard of fast food places paying three times the going rate even to entry level employees. Why ? Because it was in a very small town with a large housing development going up. Fast food was seriously understaffed and there were very few people in the area. Theconstruction workers shipped in needed lunches, and business was brisk but they couldn't get any help until they upped the ante. That's how it works in a normally throttled economy. However it's never really been normal. Even back to the days of slavery. There were plenty of Men in this country willing to work. Hiring them would've actually been cheaper than slavery. You wouldn't have to house and feed them, chain them up and whip them into submission or anything like that. You tell them what to do and they do it, at the end of the day or week you pay them. If they got sick or hurt it was their problem. Over the years it got so bad they had ten year olds working in factories. Of course child labor laws came into play. Later, in what seemed a boom economy, the unions learned the ways of exploitation. Now get this straight, not every job in say, the auto industry is unskilled. There are quite a few people (or were) in it who did not need a union. Millrights, machinists and so forth. However once it becomes a union shop you get in the union or get out. Certain people could've held their own, but others couldn't. The big problem came along when they started demanding lavish retirements. For another problem caused by unions, in the Humor section there is a joke entitled Unionize. Seniority is given way too much weight in the matter. How things have been run from the beginning is the problem. I don't want to give rise to any conspiracy theories here, but the result is still the same - the wealthy get wealthier. T

thishereboi -> RE: what is it about unions? (11/20/2008 8:09:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 For me, it is "other". Unions are as antithetical to free-market capitalism as are monopoly, oligopoly, and other distortions of the market place. Unions are damaging because the rest on the fiction of "labour". Any treatment of people en bloc is a fallacy, and ultimately foolish. People are not "labor" and "management", people are human beings, each unique and individual. Unions gloss over this and render all workers not only putatively equal but also interchangeable. Thus personal excellence is undercut, personal initiative for self-improvement is undercut, and the true value of the individual person's efforts obscured. We see this in the current deplorable state of the US-owned auto industry. While the CEOs of GM, Ford, and Chrysler have much to account for in their stewardship of these companies, the UAW is also directly responsible for those companies' high and non-competitive labor costs, creating much of the extraordinary cash drains those companies are currently experiencing. Unions are an economic harm, because by their very nature they bring all their members down to the level of their least capable members--they hinder productivity and efficiency, the necessary elements of any well run and thus profitable enterprise. Absolutely. If only we could return to a simpler time when employees were happy to work 12 hours a day, seven days a week to eke out a meager existence for their families. If only we could go back to teaching our children the value of hard work by having to send them into the coal mines by the age of 12 or 13 to support the family. Those were the days when America was great! It brings a tear to my eye to think how those awful unions have ruined this country. That would have made a lot of sense about 50 years ago...today we have labor laws to protect workers. So what was that again about 12 year old coal miners? Yea I can see where that is a major problem.

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