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To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 8:10:49 PM

WhiplashSmile2

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When it comes to lists, I'm not talking about "shopping lists" or "To do lists". I'm talking about a list of specific expectations/rule cover concerns regarding specific issues.

Where using a list is used as a communication tool of these expectation/rules for a submissive partner to read and understand.

Dare I admit it, I've not been too big on creating these kinds of lists. In fact, I prefer good old fashioned sit down talks or one-on-one conversation to express expectations, talk about the concerns and issues themselves.

Now, I'm well aware that such lists can have a sort of negative impact, where the submissive partner finds it somewhat insulting, like being almost talked down upon. Another reason why I've not been in favor of using lists in this manner.

I know some people have complete sets of rules laid down on paper for their submissive/slave to follow. That lists like this are not a problem or issue for some people's D/s relationships.

I know that some things on list run the risk of being bit of a no brainer. However if you exclude things it can be mistaken as not caring about that area or issue or mistaken as not being important. Hence, why I hate putting together lists. They often end up being a combination of both common sense no brainer stuff along with stuff that is not.

Now, with this said, I've been exploring in thought, the value of such lists though. The cases where lists like this are the better way to go at times. I'm interested in hearing other peoples thoughts and views on this.

Are lists something of value, or are they insulting and somewhat demeaning in your relationship? If of great value, please explain why. If they are insulting and demeaning, please explain as well.

Also, what are the best ways to put together a list without it sounding insulting or demeaning, even more so when it's not intended to insult, demean or talk down to somebody.

< Message edited by WhiplashSmile2 -- 11/20/2008 8:14:25 PM >

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 8:35:54 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Are lists something of value, or are they insulting and somewhat demeaning in your relationship? If of great value, please explain why. If they are insulting and demeaning, please explain as well.

For the most part, I don't do lists. I have a general set of household rules (a sanitized variant of the slave guidelines/precepts I have shared in other threads) that establish the priorities and general expectations for everyone's behavior, and that's it.

Are lists of value? They can be. Where detail matters, lists are an excellent memory aid that keeps critical detail from falling through the cracks. If the detail is trivial or irrelevant, then I can easily see how they could be viewed as an insult.

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 8:54:49 PM

littlewonder

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I like both concepts..

Everyone has lists of expections, rules, etc...they want someone to follow or to be aware of. there's usually some necessity or requirement that must be followed for the relationship to stand the test of time.

But I also want someone who I can simply communicate with and we can grow together as human beings, finding what works and doesn't work because life is something ever-changing.

I don't see any reason why you can't have both.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 8:58:34 PM

PurpleSockx

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I can only speak for myself as I'm so very aware that this is different from one person to another but for me such lists are very important. Before getting together, my Master used to have a more "casual" outlook on such things as rules etc. and it was after I explained what a difference it made for me that he made a list for me. I'm the kind of person who can easily feel insecure when I feel disorganized lol Some of my rules are, of course, no-brainers and I don't need to look at my list on a daily basis to remind myself of them. But it just feel to me like they are more "serious" or "real" that way. But again, it's very much a personality thing for me and I can very well understand why another sub/slave would feel differently about it. So I think one list could sound great to one person but perhaps a bit too much for another.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 9:16:06 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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Personally I am not a big on lists either, however, I think that a general encompassing set of expectations or rules can be applied without insult..After that, communication is the fine tweaking of the whole enchilada. I mean for me, I enjoy talking as much as the next woman..so who better to talk with than my own Dominant..heck! even if I had everything spelled out to the inth degree I will and I mean I, without a doubt would find something to question, just so the lines of verbal discourse would continue on as many levels as I could find..I guess I simply want his mind opened to me as mine is opened to him....Tempting

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 10:27:41 PM

loveandlight87

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I have not experienced getting a 'list' presented to me as what would be expected of me in a d/s relationship so I am not entirely sure how I would react. I suspect that it would depend a lot on the nature of the things on the list. For example, I would likely find a list of what day to do which chores helpful. But, a morning to night time-stamped to do list (as in 8:05 pour coffee; 8:06 bring cup of coffee to my desk) would most likely make me run for the hills.

As some have already said though, communicating about the emotional and relational (to borrow the lovely Davan's word) expectations I would consider optimal. Now, having a list to use as notes for the conversation would be another story. We don't always remember everything we would like to get across and notes can be helpful in that area.

love

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Post #: 6

RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 10:28:23 PM

pompeii

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Can't imagine making a list. If I did, I'd lose it anyway.

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 11:40:48 PM

LPslittleclip

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i didn't receive a list but i was given them verbally. there were several house rules to start and after that it changed as necessary to keep harmony in the family. i would not see a list as a insult but a reminder of expectations that would be followed.

(in reply to pompeii)

Post #: 8

RE: To list or not to list? - 11/20/2008 11:55:29 PM

MasterFireMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2
Also, what are the best ways to put together a list without it sounding insulting or demeaning, even more so when it's not intended to insult, demean or talk down to somebody.

Turn it into a manual like I did! :-)

Master Fire

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(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 12:03:25 AM

NihilusZero

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I wouldn't think lists are meant to be substitutes for conversation and discussion but rather more permanent tangible delineation of rules and parameters. I'm not sure how it can be demeaning unless demands are forced beyond the boundaries agreed upon by the partners...but that's true of any method of regulation enforcement, written or not.

As with many introspective things, there is an advantage to writing these sorts of things down to help frame an understanding of expectations. If the prospect of a list comes across as insulting to a partner, I'd surmise it's not the list at all that is at the heart of the problem.

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(in reply to LPslittleclip)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 12:29:24 AM

Padriag

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NZ sums up some of my thoughts on it. Specifically, lists are useful tools for organizing thoughts into a coherent form. However, lists are not substitutes for conversation and discussion. My opinion is a dominant should have a clear set of rules and expectations... a "list" of them if you will. Being able to provide these in a spelled out form to a prospective submissive is, however, just the beginning... not the end... of the discussion.

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 4:23:53 AM

Wildfleurs

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I think similar to what Padriag said its the beginning of the discussion, not the end that lists are fine but I think sometimes its so easy to get caught up in the minutia that its easy to loose sight of the forest. If there are key things that are essential to you and maybe you are prone to forgetting then making it into a list is fine, otherwise personally I think talking is just fine - everything will unfold over time and really... whats the rush?

C~

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 5:28:28 AM

DesFIP

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I think you need the list for yourself. You need to know what you must have in a relationship and what you cannot possibly deal with. But I don't like the job interview set up where you question each other. I prefer to allow conversations to flow with an occasional question on an important subject.

Simply because although it is important to make sure you are compatible and complimentary, it is equally important to me that there be the intangibles: chemistry, ease with each other, etc. And those items do not come across in the artificial job interview type meeting.

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 6:04:53 AM

WhiplashSmile2

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In terms of using lists such as this, I was not thinking about it being a complete and total list of all expectations/rules at the time. Rather a list that is created from time to time as the need arises. More less a communication tool, to cover expectation regarding specific areas in the development of a new D/s relationship, or any new challenges in an existing D/s relationship itself.

In many regards once the expectations are known, and both parties get into the rountine of things, there should be no real need to hang onto the list. It's simply a communication tool to clear up or avoid from misunderstanding from happening. It's a little hard to hold somebody accountable for expectations that have not been made clear, and people are not mind readers.

Also dare I express this, perhaps my own expectation are not fair or perhaps realistic, if they are not, then I want to know about it. I might be the one needing to readjust my own expectations or thoughts on the matter. (Is it OK for DOMs to admit such things on a public message board? lol..).

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 6:22:15 AM

Rover

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Personally, I can't hold someone to a standard of behavior that has not been clearly expressed to them. Consequently, my expectations are (generally) contained in a list of (presently) 52 rules. There are rules for my partner, myself, and my home.

No, they're not intended to cover each and every possible scenario. First, I don't want her to "lawyer me" (ie: treat each rule as if it were a law that requires legal interpretation) and second, I don't want her answerable to a list of rules rather than me.

But as a means of communicating mutual expectations, I find it quite helpful.

John

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(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 6:42:07 AM

WhiplashSmile2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
No, they're not intended to cover each and every possible scenario. First, I don't want her to "lawyer me" (ie: treat each rule as if it were a law that requires legal interpretation) and second, I don't want her answerable to a list of rules rather than me.

I can imagine that "lawyering" can become a problem for some people. Where their submissive partner is looking for ways to manipulate and bend the rules/expectations. Which is in part why I hate not including some of the no brainers in a list. The "Lawyering" bit could be rather difficult to deal with, and I would think that would be an issue in itself should that start to occur.

Even with expectations known, at times people will fail or fall short. What's important is that they are a standard to work at adhering to. At least in my mind, this is the way I see it.

I am open minded to hear anything my girl has to say regarding anything, even when she thinks or feels that I'm not being fair, reasonable or expecting too much. I'd much rather hear honestly coming from somebody lips compared to hearing them "lawyer" over matters. I think this Daddy might want to fine somebody for contempt of court if that becomes the case. lol..

This is one of my concerns though, that some people want to "lawyer" or nit pick things to death. I would think anybody would get the general idea or gist of a given set of expectations and reasoning behind it. Somebody who is into nit picking it to death looking for ways to bend or manipulate their way around things, I don't think that would be a good healthy and solid D/s relationship.

(in reply to Rover)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 6:45:52 AM

NuevaVida

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I make lists when I have so much going on that I just KNOW I will forget stuff. Grocery lists, to-do lists, lists of thoughts I want to journal about later, lists of iTunes music I want to get...I keep them electronically, and they only last temporarily. I have never been able to follow lists religiously, all the time.

As for your question about feeling demeaned or insulted by a Dom listing things for me, No, I would be grateful he took the time to help organize me. The person's intent goes a long way toward how I feel about what he's doing. If he listed things because he thought I was too stupid to organize myself, well, that would make me feel a bit cruddy. If he did it because that's just the way his brain works, and listing things to me helps him keep track of what he's given me, more power to him.

You can always try explaining that - you're giving her a list so you can keep track of what you've given her, and you hope it helps her organize your expectations of her as well. I can't imagine feeling offended by that.

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 6:47:00 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2

I can imagine that "lawyering" can become a problem for some people. Where their submissive partner is looking for ways to manipulate and bend the rules/expectations. Which is in part why I hate not including some of the no brainers in a list. The "Lawyering" bit could be rather difficult to deal with, and I would think that would be an issue in itself should that start to occur.

It's only a problem if you allow it to be a problem. I find that saying "Stop... no lawyering me." is all that's necessary. Once you engage in the debate, it's too late.

quote:

This is one of my concerns though, that some people want to "lawyer" or nit pick things to death.

Again, this can only happen if you allow it to happen. The responsibility is far less hers to avoid "lawyering", than it is yours (or mine) not to allow it.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 7:09:42 AM

leadership527

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~fr~
Yeah, I'm going to go with the prevalent attitude here. A list, contract, or document of some sort can be useful but also can become a trap if it is mistaken for actual communication.

For me personally, I shy away from such things. If my partner felt the need for a list, contract or other such document, I'd tell her "Sure, go ahead and write up something... whatever you want... I'll sign it. But then we need to talk about why you wanted to do this at all." I'd be much more worried about why she felt the need to be protected from me than I would the actual contents of the list. I'd wonder if our marriage was over and that worry would eclipse any individual item contained therein.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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(in reply to Rover)

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RE: To list or not to list? - 11/21/2008 7:15:57 AM

gypsygrl

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I like to have things written down, and find that the act of writing things down helps to clarify the logic behind things, and bring to the fore hidden/latent expectations.

Most D's seem put off by the expectation that they should have their shit together enough to have some of it in writing. But, they aren't so much interested in dominating as they're interested in getting their way. If getting your way is all you want, then its best not to write things down, 'cause then you can change things on a whim.

Why on earth would you think that using lists is insulting/demeaning to an s-type? Its never happened but I can only imagine my reaction: I'd be like, lookie there, a D on his ball, and more than two thoughts to rub together!!!

Maybe its my academic background, but I tend to write things down.

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