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U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 11:33:30 AM   
Musicmystery


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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 11:46:14 AM   
RainydayNE


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electric cars WERE here before, but they were all yanked off the roads.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 2:41:24 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		What happened to the large NiMH  battery patent controversy?

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 2:54:54 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What happened to the large NiMH  battery patent controversy?


The oil company still owns the patent and still isn't rushing to license NiMH for automobile power sources.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 3:13:58 PM   
MmeGigs


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Status: offline 		I saw/heard both of these programs (I missed quite a bit of SciFri, though).  The local news immediately before the SciFri program was about  CapX 2020 and the huge transmission lines they want to run across the state.  The juxtaposition of these got me thinking.

Might electric cars (true electrics, not hybrids) be another corn ethanol?  Or worse?

Corn ethanol started out being the answer to all of our problems, but you hardly hear anyone talk about it as a solution anymore.  The increase in demand for corn brought the price up to where the fuel prices weren't competitive.  The production of the fuel wasn't terribly green.  Corn doesn't seem to be the best raw material.  Prices for other corn-related stuff went up, and that turns out to be a heck of a lot of stuff.  The limitations of the fuel that people were willing to put up with - 20% drop in MPG, having the car freeze up if there's a cold snap - weren't worth it.  It started looking ecofriendlier and vastly more economical to buy regular 10% ethanol gas (we don't have non-ethanol gas in MN) than to buy E85.

A big increase in the number of electric cars on the road will put a big demand on the electrical grid.  The increased demand will lead to increased electricity prices, which will in turn bump up the prices of just about everything since every business uses electricity.  There would need to be huge investments made in our generation and transmission facilities.  The folks who have health concerns about themselves or their livestock living close to high-voltage lines would have to shut up and deal with it, as will the folks at Yucca Mountain.  We'll start fast-tracking generation facilities and easing restrictions.  Pretty soon we'll be hearing about how much environmental overhead goes into fueling our green cars, and the internal combustion engine may start looking kind of sweet.

Now, I am very nearly a tree-hugger.  I reduce, reuse and recycle.  I pay the extra $6/mo on my electric bill to support renewables.  I'm going to be installing solar hot water heat in a few years.  I love the idea of an emmissions-free electric car.  I also like the idea of less dependence on the volatile oil market, a lot of which is in the hands of folks who don't like us much.  However, after having been stung by the whole E85 thing, I am skeptical.  There will surely be some downsides to electric cars, beyond the limitations of the vehicles themselves.  Before we go charging off in this direction, I'd like to see some practical discussion of the potential problems.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 3:53:24 PM   
toledotpeslave


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Status: offline 		The only way we can do it is nuke plants...a LOT of them.

Otherwise everyone will have to get monster calves like me pushing 52 tooth gears on their bike.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 4:03:38 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		"They" say no---that existing technology monitors the grid and charges the cars when power is available, late at night, and that this alone can support 75% of the demand.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 4:09:33 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: toledotpeslave
The only way we can do it is nuke plants...a LOT of them.


How do we make sure they're built safely (or how much money are we willing to spend for regulation and oversight) and what do we do with the wastes? 

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 4:19:31 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
"They" say no---that existing technology monitors the grid and charges the cars when power is available, late at night, and that this alone can support 75% of the demand.


I heard that, too, but even assuming they're right, it's still a heck of a lot more demand on a system that's already rather stressed, no? 

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 4:20:49 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		The argument, I believe, is that this displaces a LOT of oil energy consumption.

But I don't pretend to know for sure.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 4:44:27 PM   
toledotpeslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: toledotpeslave
The only way we can do it is nuke plants...a LOT of them.


How do we make sure they're built safely (or how much money are we willing to spend for regulation and oversight) and what do we do with the wastes? 


I live well within the fallout zone (hopefully on a day without an East wind) of arguably the worst nuclear plant (safety wise) in the country. I'm not that worried about it.

We put the waste deep under a mountain in Nevada.

I'm much more worried about a terrorist with a fission bomb (not a dirty bomb) than a very serious problem from a nuke plant.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 4:54:40 PM   
RainydayNE


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Status: offline 		yucca mountain is still a ways off
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain
yes i know it's "only" wiki, but still... useful info

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:01:37 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
The argument, I believe, is that this displaces a LOT of oil energy consumption. 


I understand that argument and think it's a really important one, but that doesn't address the problem of an electrical grid that's already stressed.  I thought they kind of brushed that off.  I don't think that we can move forward with electric cars without first having a discussion about the grid.  What are the best-case and worst-case estimates of the additional stress that electric cars would cause? 

I much prefer very efficient hybrids to plug-in cars.  Here's the scenario that I fear with plug-ins, knowing how we are about forward planning and such.  A big boom in plug-in cars would certainly push the price of electricity up.  Maybe not drastically up, but noticably up, maybe even significantly up.  The folks who are fighting about power lines and nuclear plants and such will still be fighting, so additional infrastructure will be slow in coming.  Electric companies will start pushing the conservation measures harder, even making household power management mandatory (for those unfamiliar with this, the power company turns off power to some of your stuff during peak usage times).  At the same time, the decreasing demand for gasoline is pushing gas prices way down.  Joe Homeowner will hop in his now less expensive to drive full-sized pick up and go down to Home Depot to buy himself a gas-powered generator to supplement his expensive and inconstant household electricity.

Some may find that ridiculous, but it wasn't that many years ago that electricity was very expensive and diesel fuel was pretty cheap, and people around here with electric furnaces were buying diesel generators to supplement their household power during the worst of the winter.  Right now people with propane furnaces are buying electric heaters because propane prices are so high. 

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:06:40 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		I have wondered what would happen to my electric bill with a plug-in.

Not that I can afford one anyway.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:21:17 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I have wondered what would happen to my electric bill with a plug-in.

Not that I can afford one anyway.

I used a kit to convert my Prius to plug in. I drive my car fairly sparingly, once or twice a week to work or on a sales call and grocery shopping and dry cleaning pickup on the weekends. My electric bill, for the garage I rent, went up about $5 a month. If it was on my apartment meter the kilowatt usage would likely result in a dollar or two more a month. I fill the tank about once a quarter.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:37:38 PM   
toledotpeslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I have wondered what would happen to my electric bill with a plug-in.

Not that I can afford one anyway.

I used a kit to convert my Prius to plug in. I drive my car fairly sparingly, once or twice a week to work or on a sales call and grocery shopping and dry cleaning pickup on the weekends. My electric bill, for the garage I rent, went up about $5 a month. If it was on my apartment meter the kilowatt usage would likely result in a dollar or two more a month. I fill the tank about once a quarter.


I don't understand why someone would pay extra for a hybrid when they drive so little.

I've always been an advocate of a Toyota Corolla (or that type of car) for most buyers. A lot cheaper, less complicated, less batteries, so on, so forth.

I'm also an advocate for manual transmissions, which are almost dead, so I realize I'm probably wasting my time with most people.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:38:46 PM   
toledotpeslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

yucca mountain is still a ways off
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain
yes i know it's "only" wiki, but still... useful info


We can store it at Packard Main in east Detroit until it is ready.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:40:21 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: toledotpeslave
I live well within the fallout zone (hopefully on a day without an East wind) of arguably the worst nuclear plant (safety wise) in the country. I'm not that worried about it. 


I'm not opposed to nuclear energy, but I'm fairly concerned about fast-tracking construction of nuclear plants.  I've been involved in big constructions projects.  They're loosely orchestrated cluster fucks that come out mostly okay in the end.  The more you push the deadline, the more problems you're likely to end up correcting.  Or letting slide.  I don't want to do this with a nuclear plant.

quote:

We put the waste deep under a mountain in Nevada. 


And run the high voltage lines regardless of the objections from the folks who live under them, I suppose.  Easier said than done is a bit of an understatement. 

quote:

I'm much more worried about a terrorist with a fission bomb (not a dirty bomb) than a very serious problem from a nuke plant.


Comparisons like this always confuse me.  I'm more worried about a tornado than I am about a flood, but I don't want to see either one of them.

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:45:35 PM   
MasterG2kTR


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Status: offline 		I don't remember when exactly, but, within the last week or so, I saw a program on Discovery that was talking about Nicola Tesla and a vision he had for wireless power distribution.

DISCLAIMER: Keep in mind that the following is purely my speculation at the moment....

But now consider the possibilities of electric cars that could be constantly powered thru wireless power transmission. No need to wait hours for the car to recharge, long trips are not a problem, no pollution from the cars, no need for fuel stations.

All this would be provided thru a HUGE Tesla coil which scientists are planning to build in the very near future (should actually be underway now from statements in the show). They had already built and tested a 1/4 scale Tesla coil, though it did not produce the results they had hoped for, it showed great promise, and they are confident the full scale unit will produce the desired results.

This vision could potentially eclipse anything else being considered should this concept come to fruition.

< Message edited by MasterG2kTR -- 11/21/2008 5:47:42 PM >

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RE: U.S. Electric Cars---closer than we think? - 11/21/2008 5:50:17 PM   
RainydayNE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs


quote:

We put the waste deep under a mountain in Nevada. 


And run the high voltage lines regardless of the objections from the folks who live under them, I suppose.  Easier said than done is a bit of an understatement. 




exactly. it's easy to say "oh we'll just put it here" but people LIVE in those places. and they object as they certainly have the right to.


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