the femine whiles problem (Full Version)

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DeepWaters -> the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 3:55:10 AM)

this was in response to a journal entry I found thought provoking...

men think only with their dicks and are easily manipulated, even by the female property they supposedly own?

Do you really think that statement holds true for all Dom's ;)

It depends as Im sure your master ***** will tell you, on what the dominant wants...if his main goal is sex and easy access to it..then yes perhaps a batting eyed slave girl can get away with more.

However if your Dominant truely cares for you above his own needs, then he will discipline you, and hold constant his level of discipline no matter how you beg and plead...

For some of us controling your behaviour and molding you into the perfect vessel for our use and an extension of our will is far more important than getting our rocks off.

A properly behaved slave girl is available to be used sexually whenever her owner requires her...but how do you get proper behaviour out of a girl unless you learn to control her effectively and shrugg off her attempts to whine and wheedle out of her spanking....Answer YOU DON'T

...thus we have slave girls that react out, their behaviour doesn't get corrected, they fail to grow as maturing persons, and they get quickly bored with the relationship...and start thinking about finding "a real man"...they keep acting out begging to be put in their place until they do something ..mere discipline (correcting behaviour) wont do...

now you need Punishment...which is and should be so severe that whatever action on the girls part caused that punishment to occur... she will NEVER think of doing that again.

Sadly Dom's all to often are too busy dealing with their own betrayal and pain...to properly see to what their slave girl needs to bring her back under control ...she runs...and the Dom says "fuck it" Im not dealing with this crazy bitch anymore...and then she comes back in tears...or feels sorry for herself that it was her fault and she ruined the relationship....but its not...a disobedient female is like a disobedient pet...its fault lies not in iteself but in the raising of that little girl and in the failure of the trainer...as with all things the Dominant is responible.

so to sum up: if you have a guy who is that easily lead around by his dick...its only a matter of time before you get so out of control that he can't bring you back ...and you doom what might have been...

as a side note: a slave girls father is as much to blame as her Master...socialization begins at a young age and most girls are out of control by their teenage years...and as no one expects more out of them or holds them accountable for their behaviour...they begin to expect less from themselves and while their self esteem might be high from being "independent"...they are often miserable because they still hunger for a man that will not bend or be bought off with feminine whiles... they want a man that will put them in their place...expect much from them and be able to get it....in short they want a man.

Sincerely
DeepWaters



DeepWaters -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 5:42:37 AM)

hmm why cant i edit this to take out the horrible early morning spelling mistakes



FTopinMichigan -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 6:48:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters

Do you really think that statement holds true for all Dom's ;)



I personally don't see "any" statement as being true for "all" Doms. [;)]

K



Mercnbeth -> RE: the feminine wiles problem (12/23/2005 6:59:31 AM)

quote:

men think only with their dicks and are easily manipulated, even by the female property they supposedly own?

Do you really think that statement holds true for all Dom's ;)


Waters,
Only the weak doms, or a person who is a submissive facilitator.

A Dominant or owner knows the intimate likes and dislikes of his submissive. Doing a activity that the submissive enjoys doesn't qualify as being guilty of the sin of being "topped from below". beth enjoys being spanked and flogged. Guess what - I enjoy spanking and flogging her. We are in a BDSM lifestyle relationship - spanking and flogging are a part of it. Then there are things she is averse to doing - guess what? she is required to do them anyway. I give no consideration of her "feminine wiles". Many men compromise not because of feminine wiles, but because they want to get laid. For that objective they will say/do anything.

Now there is an totally different dynamic that occurs frequently. Many people label themselves submissive yet they are the person dictating what, when, and how all lifestyle activity occurs. They seek their "one". Well, maybe they should seek him/her on the submissive side of the profile list. They list so many "requirements" the only person who would or could fulfill them is a submissive. That's a primary cause for all the frustration and disappointment. I maintain that personal labels aren't that important, but personal honesty is. An honest profile would go something like this: "Dominant personality seeks to be spanked and flogged. Will agree to be bound during process. Facilitator must be skilled enough to leave no marks which last more than one hour after the session. Only one-on-one heterosexuals need apply."

I bet many dominant men would appreciate that type of honesty versus weeding through all the limits and checklists. Don't feel that this is denigrating the experience. I'd estimate that a great majority of people are not submissive but only seek what are considered submissive "experiences". Those experiences in and of themselves can be very fulfilling and cathartic. I'd only encourage honesty on both sides.

The bottom line is this. Forget labels, forget trying to find the holy grail definition of sub/slave. Power and domination are a function of who ultimately is in charge and responsible for the all the relationship dynamics. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. The result of who is deciding what happens during a scene, or how you interact in your relationship is the evidence of who's in charge.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 7:10:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters
Do you really think that statement holds true for all Dom's ;)

Very few things hold true for all doms. However, plenty of doms are controlled more by their sex drive than their actual desire for long term relationship. And a vast majority of doms DO have sex as a component of their desires (think of a dom just throwing a bitch on the ground, getting off and then walking away)

quote:

as a side note: a slave girls father is as much to blame as her Master...socialization begins at a young age and most girls are out of control by their teenage years...and as no one expects more out of them or holds them accountable for their behaviour...they begin to expect less from themselves and while their self esteem might be high from being "independent"...they are often miserable because they still hunger for a man that will not bend or be bought off with feminine whiles... they want a man that will put them in their place...expect much from them and be able to get it....in short they want a man.

Sincerely
DeepWaters

I'd like to think most slaves are beyond that childish of behavior and wouldn't look to being spoiled by daddy as an easy out for acting up as an adult.

I think a lot of subs really WANT a man who will control them- exactly as they want to be controlled, which includes a lot of sex, "take me nows" and seductions.



candystripper -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 8:12:46 AM)

quote:

Sadly Dom's all to often are too busy dealing with their own betrayal and pain...to properly see to what their slave girl needs to bring her back under control ...she runs...and the Dom says "fuck it" Im not dealing with this crazy bitch anymore...and then she comes back in tears...or feels sorry for herself that it was her fault and she ruined the relationship....but its not...a disobedient female is like a disobedient pet...its fault lies not in iteself but in the raising of that little girl and in the failure of the trainer...as with all things the Dominant is responible.

DeepWaters


Let me respond first to the Op post's main thought. No, i do not think grown Men are led around by their dicks, but like other humans some men arrest development in their teens or early 20's and yes, such men can be manipulated. i think the vast majority outgrow this conduct/thinking just as they can see women as people and not sex objects.

My men friends, in and out of D/s, are capable of keeping their promises to their wives; capable to thinking of my feelings before theirs; and capable of providing support when another man breaks my heart. In short, they are adults with many wonderful qualities, and while they are very Hot, each one chooses how women and sex enter and act in his life, not surrendering all reason to a passing urge.

It is this view of enslaved women which causes me to hesitate to assign the term "slave" to myself. Despite whatever failings i have, i have the ability to look after myself; i am not a little girl. My vision of slavery has to do with the depth of (my possible) love and trust as regards my Dom or Master, and the concommitent smaller and smaller need to exert any control and possibly to have any input (because i can deny Him nothing).

In this pardigm, i see no need for punishment; the woman seeks to understand herself as well as her Dom or Master, just as He does, and while He might need to correct a misapprehension, there should be no need for "punishment". i think i'd have to seriously reconsider a relationship in which the Dom or Master truely believed it was His place/right/duty to "punish" me. i'm just not into role playing enough to grant Him parental status.

candystripper

p.s. It is not my intention to disresepct anyone by what i've written.



wolffeathers -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 8:21:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

i'm just not into role playing enough to grant Him parental status.


It's not only parental status, but also the status of Master.

The Master sometimes must punish a slave.

However, when that slave corrects the problem, I, at least, will reward.

That is why it is called training.

To the OP:

Well, conisdering me and my slave do not have sex, I don't know how my dick is getting in the way.

I am a sadist, I do enjoy giving her pain.

However, that pain is a reward. Nothing more.

She does not get her way by playing on my sex drive, unless I wish her to.

And that is rare.



truesub4u -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 8:43:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters





as a side note: a slave girls father is as much to blame as her Master...socialization begins at a young age and most girls are out of control by their teenage years...and as no one expects more out of them or holds them accountable for their behaviour...they begin to expect less from themselves and while their self esteem might be high from being "independent"...they are often miserable because they still hunger for a man that will not bend or be bought off with feminine whiles... they want a man that will put them in their place...expect much from them and be able to get it....in short they want a man.

Sincerely
DeepWaters


I was going thru this... deleting some and getting down to this part.. and then i realized. This whole post is an insult to not only Doms, subs, slaves, and FATHERS.

It make me wonder why you feel this way. I mean i've seen so much on this site about M/s relationships are based on more than sexual needs. Or should be anyways. You made it sound like a game. Not a relationship. Actually the whole post sounded a little weird to me. I read it twice. And the other responses to it as well. To see if I could understand the OP. Still not to sure about it.

But what I do see is trying to lay blame on a father for your slave not being a properly trained submissive?.... PLEASE! Most father would never put with someone beating on their little girl.. no matter how old she is. Most father warn other men.
You hurt my baby girl. I'll hurt you! So to lay this blame on fathers??.... (rolls eyes)



MTslave -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 10:49:47 AM)

Once again a question that can and will have a million different answers... each right for the person who writes them.

For me personally and my Master (for I can certainly not speak for anyone else) I know that he being a mature SLIGHTLY (gets kudo's points for that one)male, he does not and is not led around by his sexual parts. That being stated does not mean he doesn't know how to use them and dayum well I might add. [:D]

However, because I myself find that in going through my daily life activites keeping in mind everything my Master has ever asked of me, taught me, shown me I do things now even with him 8600 miles away that he would be pleased with. So I guess this means that he has done more then just sex with me. The punishments I paid for were all lessons well learned and very well deserved. The times of just talking and growing and learning were instilled not only in my mind but on my heart. And least of all, yes least of all, the wonderful sex has left me always craving more but never forgetting who I am.

There are true Dominant types... male and female... who instill more then just sexual desires.

Humbly submitted
Master T's slave



brightspot -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 2:07:44 PM)

quote:

now you need Punishment...which is and should be so severe that whatever action on the girls part caused that punishment to occur... she will NEVER think of doing that again.


Wow! There has been so much generalizing here of late, more than I have read in these forums before.

I can't disagree with you more. My Domina never uses spanking or flogging for anything other than play or pleasure, her's and mine. What you describe, would seem to us workings of a more sado-masochist relationship. Pain or "severe" punishment can for some be more detrimental than "growth producing".
In our relationship, love, understanding and clear effective communication is much more growth producing, than feeling a need to "put me in my place".

Different strokes work for different folks. In this instance my Domina would consider your
way of molding someone into a "perfect vessel" as destructive, abusive and also a destroyer of trust.

If you feel a need...Go ahead and express yourself and your belief about what works in WIITWD for you, but you can't speak as if it were a truth or the way for everyone. That I find is very grandiose and ignorant[8|]

*Brightspot



afmvdp -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 2:23:39 PM)

punishment does not need to be physical to be severe but I believe the point being made in that post was that if a submissive or slave, just like a child, is allowed to act freely against their Master then they will lose respect. It is a natural human tendency to try to push limits and feel out boundaries and it needs to be instilled within them that certain things will not be tolerated.

Recently a local submissive I am mentoring told me about an experience they had visiting a potential Master in which she was told to do something she didn't want to do and she knowingly manipulated herself out of the situation by mock crying and running to the bathroom and locking herself in it. Knowing the whole time that she was being blatantly and intentionally disobediant, so what was this so-called "Master"s response? He pleaded and begged her to come out like a 5 year old child who had just thrown a tantrum. To me this is a laughable circumstance and because of it she really lost much respect for this mans potential at being a true and genuine Master. It's not like this is the first story of this kind I have heard either, it is far far more common than I would like to believe but again I guess it is just part of the weeding process that a submissive, just like their counterparts, must go through.

Some prefer the softer, gentler "Dom" and others do not. Again, just another case of preference in action I suppose.



andrew77uk -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 2:27:07 PM)

Its a sterotype, not all men think with their lil friend. Sure alot fall fowl of hormones, but thats testosteron (sp?) But I think its fair to say most men are pretty caring..As for Doms, Well This surely comes down to the relationsip at the end of the day? And their line of work



caitlyn -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 3:15:08 PM)

First, I think some might want to read the OP more carefully, and take note that it was in response to someone else's journal entry, which were not actually the original posters thoughts.

I see the original post, the journal entry it discusses and the whole topic as a bit of an overgeneralization.

I think on some level, it comes down to the value of what is possessed. If it is easily replaced, there is probably little chance of manipulation.

Contrast that with something that is very hard to replace, for whatever reason. A person may be willing to go to great lengths to keep something this is of great value. It may at times "seem" like manipulation.

Where I think you have to be careful, is trying to read the minds of the people involved. Perhaps the value of the person possessed, is far greater than the things that are "apparently" being given up: control, masterlyness, whatever. In this instance, I don't think anyone is being manipulated. An intelligent choice is being made. If you are not party to that choice, it may look like something it really isn't. On the flip side, the person doing the "supposed" manipulation, may just be pulling on rope that has been played out for them: they know this, the person with the rope knows this ... but outsiders may look at this quite differently.

So ... I think it's hard to really understand this, and great caution needs to be used when looking at someone elses relatiosnhip and trying to decide who is playing whom. It may be, that one is playing the other, both are playing each other, or nobody is playing anyone ... no matter how it looks.



Noah -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 4:27:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepWaters


However if your Dominant truely cares for you above his own needs, then he will discipline you, and hold constant his level of discipline no matter how you beg and plead...

For some of us controling your behaviour and molding you into the perfect vessel for our use and an extension of our will is far more important than getting our rocks off.



Am I missing something? This just sounds incoherent to me. The prior sentence seems to say (correct me if I've misread) that it is a good thing for a dominant to put his needs behind those of the submissive. Isn't "putting the other's need before my own" a pretty good generic definition of what submission to a lot of people?

How hard is it to turn this over and see a manipulative submissive getting over on a chump dom, in the model you flesh out in the OP? Imagine a sub with an agenda of arranging for herself an an external source of discipline so that she can remain forever an emotional child subject to external control rather than grow past and transcend the forces and events which may have lead to her manipulative tendencies? She gets to have a life that looks from the outside like the life of a mature, whole person, without taking responsibility. Is here any worthwhile notion of human maturity which doesn't incorporate responsibilty somewhere close to its center? This sub only has to steer a course between punishments without ever having to confront her actions or possible actions and their real-world results. This manipulative sub has pulled off her crowning manipulation the day she gets this dom to relieve her of her responsibility for herself, in my view. And neither sub nor dom has learned anything about life; maybe some things about techniques of manipulation and punishment, but nothing of overarching value.

This looks to me like Dominant as enabler of immaturity and very much opposed to any notion of assisting another human being in their journey toward genuine growth and fulfillment of personal potential.

And in the second quoted sentence we get this stuff about molding a perfect vessel for our use, an extension of our will... which is more important than getting our rocks off. So first of all isn't this vessel we're molding designed to get our rocks off sexually and in terms of power dynamic and in any other way we choose? If it isn't then in what sense is it the perfect vessel for our use?

So I'm very confused by this original post, not that I don't get confused a lot.

The thread generally seems to be revealing a lot of either/or thinking, my response so far included. But there are other ways to think.

Some people are highly manipulative. Some of these are women. If one of them is going around trying her damndest to manipulate everything with three legs, and them whining and moving on when she succeeds at the thing she is trying so hard to do, well can't we all see that the world will keep giving her exactly what she is demanding of it? I think she will find what she's actively looking for--ways to remain manipulative, first of all, plus an unending string of disappointing relationships--rather than what she may be giving lip service to.

If what you want is a computer program that executes elegantly and economically then you shouldn't pick up a hammer and nails to build it. If what you want is light, flaky pie crust, then you shouldn't reach for a bag of fertilizer and a rototiller. If what you want is a relationship that isn't one more instance of you manipulating your own way into ultimate unhappiness, shouldn't you set down the tools of manipulation and pick up the tools of openness and communication and genuine surrender?

I'd like to share an additional opinion here.

I think it is crap to suggest this firm and uniform discipline at all times stuff. First of all it is clearly based on rudimentary notions of behavioral psychology. Behavioral psychology was abandoned a long time ago by the people who invented it when they saw, in the results of rigorous scienbtific experiments, that it didn't tell the story of human behavior in the way they had hoped it would. So here is an approach based upon a notoriously failed theory. As if that isn't bad enough, this approach doens't even employ what knowledge was gained in the behavioral research. Behaviorism isn't utterly worthless of course. You can temporarily derive gross behaviors with its techniques. In lower animals the behaviors can be made fairly durable, even.

You can teach a pigeon to peck here rather than there by behavioral techniques, teach rats to speed through mazes, but research shows that far better results obtain--in terms of producing durable behavior changes--by not being uniform with reinforcements. Irrregular schedules produce desired behaviors almost as fast and the behaviors produced this way are far more resistant to being extinguished when compared to behaviors produced in response to rigorous reinforcement schedules.

If you have to crack some whip each and every time your subbie steps out of line, haven't you been trained and manipulated to precisely the same depth and degree as your collared subject? I see two beings chained to a reinforement schedule and not a whiff of liberation anywhere in the picture for either one of them.

But people aren't pigeons or rats. Behavioral theory doesn't explain nor allow reliable, effective manipulation of complex human behaviors. If you and she share some kind of rat fetish and she is willing to pretend to be subhuman and you are satisfied with subhuman-level responses, well rock on.

How's this for an outlook, a way of describing things based on which a person can try to proceed and then see how things go:

People really are responsible for their behaviors. It is how the world is, like rainy days and gravity it just comes with the territory. Pretending that you can be ultimately responsible for your sub's behavior, or share ultimate responsiilty with her dead father, under this view is like pretending that it won't rain or that half the time the rain will go up and make things dryer o the ground. It just isn't that way.

I mean really, if you and her father are the engines of her behavior, and you are of the same species as she then mustn't your father and someone else be the engines of your behavior? Or do we live in a universe where the innie of the species is in no sense a moral agent--she bears no responsibilty for her behaviors--but is only a pawn in the games of the outies?




petwolf22 -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 5:22:41 PM)

Comparing slaves to your pet, for that matter--give women a little bit of credit...they should be responsible for their behavior and actions, just like we all should.



DeepWaters -> RE: the feminine whiles problem (12/23/2005 5:52:06 PM)

Harumph I was hoping this post would die early on to hide my poor spelling :)

oh well

Ok first... posting something out of context has all sorts of problems built in...lesson learned.

to individual replies

LuckyAlbatross--
quote:

I'd like to think most slaves are beyond that childish of behavior and wouldn't look to being spoiled by daddy as an easy out for acting up as an adult.


Id love to think it too, my experiences have shown me different.

CandyStripper---
quote:

(because i can deny Him nothing)
ah sounds like true love

quote:

In this pardigm, i see no need for punishment; the woman seeks to understand herself as well as her Dom or Master, just as He does, and while He might need to correct a misapprehension, there should be no need for "punishment"


correct there should not be any need...but submissives and slaves just like Dominants are not always mature people...one hard limit for me is dishonesty another is drama. (Candy you probably don't have these failings, which is why you resist the idea of punishment, but many people aren't as mature as you and need a little adjustment regardless of their attempts to manipulate there way out of things ;) )

Many Dom's having the same hard limits might end it right there...Im stubborn and instead of bailing I stick it out and work with them on their bad behaviour problem...but I dont let them get away with it...The submissive is not always asking me to be nice she's asking me for results shes asking me often to make her a better person (subjectively speaking)

I dont give up on a girl that easy but clearly she needs something to correct her behaviour and if a spanking wont do...then something else she really hates has to...once had a sub who threw a temper tantrum in a resteraunt...my "punishment" I kept her in solitary for the weekend and we had a long talk about it afterwords...she hated my guts by day one and by the end of day two was so happy and teary eyed to see me that she never had that problem again. Harsh? for her very...did it get results? Yes...does she feel shes grown as person because of it, Yes...(dusts hands, thank you, thats my job)

Truesub4u---
quote:

This whole post is an insult
deal with it..its an opinion they all smell

as for the basis of my opinion
we'd need a whole new thread...

about the consequences of the womens liberation movement...and the subsequent disrupting of gender roles, the rise in divorce rates, the mental feminization of boys, child rearing in the new age, the reactionary stance of many of today's young women to "equality",and conversely the Me Me Me culture I see amoung many corporate gals ...

Women's Lib is one of the most amazing developments of the modern age it's done a lot of good and it's also done a lot of harm...I think the pendulum will be swinging back.

as for me not having a properly trained slave vs how the girl relates to her father
I start with whats there for a mental state...some are more mature than others...a lot of that is how they were or were not properly raised by their parents.

...Id think most fathers would not want their little girl with an abusive man..a firm steady guiding hand is something different...I also think far too many "little girls" have their father wrapped around their finger...and hence the desire for a bad boy that wont put up with their shit.

but these are all just opinions breath in the aroma or not...you could always ignore them :-p

MTslave---
quote:

There are true Dominant types... male and female... who instill more then just sexual desires.


nicely put...perhaps what were after is not parental guidance or masterful control...but someone who is enlightened and will pass some of that on to us.

afmvdp---
quote:

punishment does not need to be physical to be severe but I believe the point being made in that post was that if a submissive or slave, just like a child, is allowed to act freely against their Master then they will lose respect. It is a natural human tendency to try to push limits and feel out boundaries and it needs to be instilled within them that certain things will not be tolerated.


Double thumbs up afmvdp....wish I could say things so simply youve cut to the heart of the matter.

quote:

she really lost much respect for this mans potential at being a true and genuine Master. It's not like this is the first story of this kind I have heard either, it is far far more common than I would like to believe but again I guess it is just part of the weeding process that a submissive, just like their counterparts, must go through.


amen...we might be seeing things from a different pov though being younger men...good starting off point for a generational gap/ relationship mindsets thread. care to start one?

Caitlyn---
quote:

I think on some level, it comes down to the value of what is possessed. If it is easily replaced, there is probably little chance of manipulation.


ooph coldly logical and objective :D I like this girl

hmm yeah I can see that...if I was totally callous it would be easier to force the training at my own pace regardless of the slaves comfort level...if she breaks I toss her aside and get another one of similarily low value...(I believe we call these guys assholes and players in the real world ) kinda like to think of myself as a good person so I wouldnt do it...but being objective yes I can see the economics of the dynamic.

quote:

Contrast that with something that is very hard to replace, for whatever reason. A person may be willing to go to great lengths to keep something this is of great value. It may at times "seem" like manipulation.


hmm think I might have lost you here...or I misinterpreted the first quote...
yes agreed you find what you think is "your" perfect match "your" one in a million submissive you dont dont throw in the towel easily...which is why its all the more important to keep open lines of communication and not let her get away with bad behaviour...because that would ruin your relationship...its walking a fine line...

quote:

So ... I think it's hard to really understand this, and great caution needs to be used when looking at someone elses relatiosnhip and trying to decide who is playing whom. It may be, that one is playing the other, both are playing each other, or nobody is playing anyone ... no matter how it looks.


good point...hard to say where things are coming from when you only know your half of the story...nearly impossible when youre the outside party.

Stirring the pot...again
Sincerely
DW







candystripper -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 6:06:21 PM)

quote:

Recently a local submissive I am mentoring told me about an experience they had visiting a potential Master in which she was told to do something she didn't want to do and she knowingly manipulated herself out of the situation by mock crying and running to the bathroom and locking herself in it. Knowing the whole time that she was being blatantly and intentionally disobediant, so what was this so-called "Master"s response? He pleaded and begged her to come out like a 5 year old child who had just thrown a tantrum. To me this is a laughable circumstance and because of it she really lost much respect for this mans potential at being a true and genuine Master. It's not like this is the first story of this kind I have heard either, it is far far more common than I would like to believe but again I guess it is just part of the weeding process that a submissive, just like their counterparts, must go through.

afmvdp


Sir, what You have described is manipulative, games playing behavior and You are right; i'd lose respect for a Man who'd put up with it. i don't engage in it...and shall not...it is a matter of maturity and dignity and respect for one's partner. i am direct and open, both about what i want and what i don't. It would seem to me that this is what constitutes negotiations before the couple embarks on a relationship. If afterwards, the woman goes back on her word and becomes manipulative, my Men friends would sadly depart; but They certainly would not play. This is supposed to be an intimate relationship, presumably built on trust and respect; so if one underpinning is gone, there's nothing to salvage.

candystripper



DeepWaters -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 6:22:16 PM)

quote:


that it is a good thing for a dominant to put his needs behind those of the submissive. Isn't "putting the other's need before my own" a pretty good generic definition of what submission to a lot of people?



perhaps youre right...but thats not my defination...Id call putting her needs above my own (yes even disciplining her knowing I could lose her) as being a giving person...

the more I get into this the more I start seeing myself as a Daddy Dom...is it so wrong to give to someone what they need
so you can enjoy the fruits of your efforts together later?

rather than just taking whats easily offered and cutting loose as soon as you dont get it...hmm lol ok now Im confusing myself...


Noah you have the floor

cheers
DW




KnightofMists -> RE: the femine whiles problem (12/23/2005 6:35:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: afmvdp

a potential Master in which she was told to do something she didn't want to do and she knowingly manipulated herself out of the situation by mock crying and running to the bathroom and locking herself in it. Knowing the whole time that she was being blatantly and intentionally disobediant, so what was this so-called "Master"s response? He pleaded and begged her to come out like a 5 year old child who had just thrown a tantrum. To me this is a laughable circumstance...



mmmmmmmm well I guess I have a very different take on this that anyone else...

First... she is giving her perception of the his behavior... which by the description you give seems to indicate that the only one that was there was her and him.

second... her perception is not neccessary truthful... She very consciously choose to manipulate.... In essense she showed herself to lack truthfulness..... So... I have much trouble immediately taking her perception with much credibility. if any.

Third.... He may indeed pleaded and try to cajole her from the bathroom... Likely she exaggerated the actually behaviors demonstrated from this potential Master since she found the idea of a Dominant displaying these types of behaviors to be distasteful for her.

Personally, I find her lying manipulative behaviors in that moment to be much more distasteful than this potential Master. I doubt that he was feigning or trying to manipulate her. This so-called submissive disgust me!



DelRey -> RE: the feminine wiles problem (12/23/2005 6:38:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

men think only with their dicks and are easily manipulated, even by the female property they supposedly own?

Do you really think that statement holds true for all Dom's ;)


Waters,
Only the weak doms, or a person who is a submissive facilitator.

A Dominant or owner knows the intimate likes and dislikes of his submissive. Doing a activity that the submissive enjoys doesn't qualify as being guilty of the sin of being "topped from below". beth enjoys being spanked and flogged. Guess what - I enjoy spanking and flogging her. We are in a BDSM lifestyle relationship - spanking and flogging are a part of it. Then there are things she is averse to doing - guess what? she is required to do them anyway. I give no consideration of her "feminine wiles". Many men compromise not because of feminine wiles, but because they want to get laid. For that objective they will say/do anything.

Now there is an totally different dynamic that occurs frequently. Many people label themselves submissive yet they are the person dictating what, when, and how all lifestyle activity occurs. They seek their "one". Well, maybe they should seek him/her on the submissive side of the profile list. They list so many "requirements" the only person who would or could fulfill them is a submissive. That's a primary cause for all the frustration and disappointment. I maintain that personal labels aren't that important, but personal honesty is. An honest profile would go something like this: "Dominant personality seeks to be spanked and flogged. Will agree to be bound during process. Facilitator must be skilled enough to leave no marks which last more than one hour after the session. Only one-on-one heterosexuals need apply."

I bet many dominant men would appreciate that type of honesty versus weeding through all the limits and checklists. Don't feel that this is denigrating the experience. I'd estimate that a great majority of people are not submissive but only seek what are considered submissive "experiences". Those experiences in and of themselves can be very fulfilling and cathartic. I'd only encourage honesty on both sides.

The bottom line is this. Forget labels, forget trying to find the holy grail definition of sub/slave. Power and domination are a function of who ultimately is in charge and responsible for the all the relationship dynamics. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. The result of who is deciding what happens during a scene, or how you interact in your relationship is the evidence of who's in charge.


*applause..... very well said.



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