RE: Verification: more harm than good (Full Version)

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xxblushesxx -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 8:26:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you are not a submissive but a slave girl. If so you having been beaten to near death may have been a spiritual necessity.
 Wtf?!!

William Shakespeare: "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio." (Hamlet, Act I, Scene V)


Alrighty. I absolutely accept that.
Care to explain?
Beating someone almost to death, would not be a spiritual necessity for anyone, including a slave, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm willing to accept that there are philosophies other than mine.
I'm curious why you believe that this could or would be a necessity for anyone at all. Truly.




moonvine -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 8:32:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx



Alrighty. I absolutely accept that.
Care to explain?
Beating someone almost to death, would not be a spiritual necessity for anyone, including a slave, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm willing to accept that there are philosophies other than mine.
I'm curious why you believe that this could or would be a necessity for anyone at all. Truly.


I find that many people here have what I consider to be an unusual view of necessities in general.  Even if "being beaten almost to death" was a very strong *desire* of yours, surely that desire would pale next to the actual *need* for food, enough clothing to protect you from the elements and/or keep you from getting arrested, ability to get basic personal hygiene issues cared for, some sort of shelter from the elements would come first?




aravain -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 8:58:43 AM)

Hrm, I got the feeling that the beating was hardly consensual...




Rule -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 9:11:28 AM)

Not necessarily so.




ftmyersartist -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 9:21:30 AM)

Sorry and not meaning to be rude but perhaps the problem is less to do with genitals and more to do with a very dramatic flair and communication skills that at best are lacking and at worst manipulative of others perceptions. I mean damn. . .it started as a "they wanna know if I was born an inny or an outy" and then when that didn't work so well then homelessness, beatings, alien abductions, anal probings by robotic nazis, and the grand old "I've been doing this longer than you have" card was played.

Seems to me if you put that much effort into finding a dominant that didn't care about gender issues you'd be in a much happier place.




NuevaVida -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 10:16:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Asz, something in your style of response resonated with me.  It's behavior that is referred to as "The Four Horsemen" which is one of the indicators of almost certain divorce in a married couple.  Bear with me for a minute.  It is a style of communicating that, in effect, STOPS communication.  Nothing can be resolved, nothing can go forward as long as someone is utilizing the four horsemen.  They are:

1.  Criticism
2.  Contempt
3.  Defensiveness
4.  Stonewalling

As long as you are being defensive (justifying what you are doing or the way you are), stonewalling (refusing to answer questions), showing contempt and criticism (in lashing out at others), your situation will not improve.  You will be stuck in the mental place where you are now, feeling hopeless and looking for someone to rescue you.


Cali



Awesome, Cali. I learned about The Four Horsemen of relationships in a John Gottman book (The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work). It's a book I'd recommend to anyone. My therapist was a Gottman therapist (certified from the Gottman Institute) and truly the best therapist I've come across.

Just wanted to re-emphasize your post.




Aszhrae -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 10:17:57 AM)

Thank you CalifChick,
In a way, girl has been perhaps married to the present couple for a long time.
Since it keeps coming up, 'Yes, girl lacks a post-secondary education' Why did girl need one? There was someone there to guide me, order me around, punish me when girl did something incorrectly or not to someone's expectations.

A total stranger criticizes you its natural to get defensive. It's in every humans nature. Sometimes its controlled, you would think girl would be used to criticism by now, having always been criticized by current master. His criticisms girl is used to, those here, girl is not.

Contempt, perhaps.

Stonewalling? Certain information is rather personal and girl is most certainly not an open book to total strangers. Girl has never met any of you personally and currently the only people that girl trusts that have been met in CM, or those that girl has spoken to in my messenger list. Certainly not here.

This thread was originally started because girl was hurt by someone asking for verification. Those that have read the first part know this. Not sure when it became personal and me having to justify every fact that girl states just leads me to think that this might be entertaining to some and of concern to others.
Girl is certainly getting some insight as to who the switches are when in fact their profile has them as submissive. But as one submissive had instructed me last night. Best to bail out now, say my thank you to all that have posted, before girl relinquishes more personal information that is of concern only to my doctor.

Now replies may be taken out of context, but why make several posts in the same thread? When this reply is already here in this single post.
Apologies for not being a linear thinker [:'(] Apologies for having been out in left field or totally outside of the ballpark [:'(] Girl has always talked non-linear, those that think linear find me hard to follow. Think me confused. That subject matter and points are taken from different sources and included in the conversation. It's confusing others have told me and it takes a while for others to understand. But girl has always communicated as such. But honestly, what girl has been, why the hell would girl need good communication skills, when the only skills that are really needed are the ones that listen for the next command or word of direction?

You all have facts that were freely given. You all chose to scrutinize. You all want proof to substantiate all the posts that girl has made. You can call me a liar all you want but this girl knows the truth of my life.
You may not like it, but girl has said thank you.
You want anything from me, it will not be through this thread.
Girl is done with this thread.

Again, Thank you all for your posts.




CalifChick -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 10:34:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae
why the hell would girl need good communication skills


(Snipped a whole bunch of defensiveness and justifications to highlight this part)

If you truly believe that, then you really should not ask anybody for opinions or help in the future.


Cali




persephonee -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 10:37:54 AM)

[8|]




moonvine -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 10:54:47 AM)

Everyone needs good communication skills.  I work on mine constantly.




Nymphonic -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 11:28:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae
'Yes, girl lacks a post-secondary education' Why did girl need one? There was someone there to guide me, order me around, punish me when girl did something incorrectly or not to someone's expectations.

That someone might not always be there, as you are well aware now.  You contradicted yourself within your own post.  First you say you're not an open book and will not share information with strangers, and then you say you will leave this thread before you give out more information. 

Girl is certainly getting some insight as to who the switches are when in fact their profile has them as submissive.

Is that really called for?  No one said you weren't a girl.  Your profile lists you as one, and you feel/know that you are one.  IF i feel and know deep down that i am submissive, then i am!  It's funny how you think it okay to be judgemental of everyone else, but you get asked for verification (something i don't see as offensive at all) and you nearly blow a gasket.  Maybe i'm missing something here?
 
You are not going to grow as a person by making excuses for everything that you do.  I believe being on your own will be a very positive experience to you.  It is scary, not everyone likes solitude, but i have grown a lot during the times that i was by myself (without a Mistress or girlfriend).  I have been able to reflect on certain behaviors and the way i do things and because of that, been able to slowly change some of the things on my own time and learn more about myself. 

But honestly, what girl has been, why the hell would girl need good communication skills, when the only skills that are really needed are the ones that listen for the next command or word of direction?

Women typically LOVE to communicate and you are looking for a Mistress.  You might not have needed to communicate in your last relationship, but now is the time to practice and keep practicing! 

You all have facts that were freely given. You all chose to scrutinize. You all want proof to substantiate all the posts that girl has made. You can call me a liar all you want but this girl knows the truth of my life.

You offered up the information and questions were asked so that people could get a clearer picture of the topics you brought up.  If you don't want to clarify for or educate people then try to refrain from bringing up things that others might not know anything about.  Or if you do, don't be offended if people ask you to educate them on what you mention in your posts.





Aszhrae -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 12:27:56 PM)

You're probably correct Nymphonic about the communications, since girl really doesn't need to communicate all that much now, especially when something causes me displeasure, current mistress has little trouble in reading my reactions, just as girl learned to read mistress and how to read current master, staying very close to mistress.
Why even ask my opinion about something, when most of you already know that facts, even if you don't, you will google it and quote some author, researcher or some kind of specialist in the field.
Does girl do that? No, not really unless something really interests me, then girl might.
Maybe it's my own fault for thinking that girl might fit in here. (of course someone is going to point out that girl is whining again, which is certainly what some people like to do) (and no doubt that last little snippet someone is going to say was totally uncalled for) Most here do seem to be more concerned about the facts than they are about getting to know people. Girl does feel some times, there is more chat of the mind, to satisfy the physical than there is about actually speaking heart to heart. Those that have spoke to me heart to heart in my messenger list or in my list of those that girl has received mail from. What is chatted there is much more important than here, because its one to one, heart to heart.
It does feel sterile sometimes posting in the forum. Which makes me feel uncomfortable. Which was why girl was saying thank you for the posts. You want to speak to me personally, okay. Here in forum, no. Because no matter what girl says, someone will read it and someone will be offended some how. Not going to try and please you all. Currently the only one that girl wants to please is Miss. Despite everything that you have scrutinized concerning me here, Miss finds little problem with.
Miss just tells me, her slut gets just a little too obsessed with pleasing her. As long as her slut obeys, her slut doesn't talk nonsense.
You all make me nervous, uncomfortable which tends to have me stick my foot in my mouth at times. Not thinking straight. (someone will no doubt state that girl is just making excuses for her behavior)

Girl does know her place it's making Miss pleased with her slut. Not here trying to please all of you. Girl has enough rope, thank you, make for a nice piece of macrame.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 12:38:39 PM)

People have the right to choose who they want to be with.  They also have the right to have the reasoning behind their choice.  Just as you want to have the right to be accepted as the gender you act...man who acts as woman or woman who acts as man...and don't feel you should have to give up the right to be what works for you, then you certainly cannot expect others to give up the right to have what works for them.

I like women as my partners...be it for play or for play/romance both.  I want that woman to have been born a woman, not for her to be someone who was surgically transformed into a woman NOR for her to be a man who identifies, dresses, acts like a woman either through choice or on her way to becoming a surgically-made woman.  That does not mean that I have no respect for either transsexuals or transgenders nor does it mean that I cannot sympathize with their plight/choices/difficulties.

I make choices every day.  Some of those are for that day, some are an ongoing choice.  I have the right to make those choices, even if they are a mistake or they hurt another or they cause someone else to lose interest in me.  Just as they have the right to make the choice to not maintain an interest in me, they also have the right to explain the why of their choice fully or to not explain it.  I personally don't understand why, if you were interested in someone in the first place, you would not explain to them fully why you no longer are...seems rather childish...but that is still their choice.  Just as what I do is MY choice and just as what you do is YOUR choice.




NuevaVida -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 12:46:34 PM)

~ Fast Reply ~

Color me confused...the OP was about frustration in having to prove herself to potential owners, yet already has an owner. The frustration stemmed from being TG, but she doesn't want to talk about being TG. There is more frustration within this thread because of the clarity asked of the OP, since there was confusing information given, but the OP doesn't feel the need for accurate communication. And then the OP was going to leave the thread due to her frustration, yet revisited to defend herself again.

I am trying to be open and kind about this, but I truly no longer understand the point of the OP, unless it was in the hopes of receiving support by all, which just isn't going to happen in any realm of life. There will always be people with differing points of view, and who will see things from another point of view.

But this thread is weaving around in places which seems to have lost its point. It's my opinion that unless and until the OP is willing to look in a mirror at her own communication style and is secure enough with herself to not care if others question her, her frustration will continue. I can't see any other away of remedying that. For her sake, I hope in time she is willing to see her part in this.




starshineowned -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 12:50:20 PM)

quote:

Ever thought that it was for you the master or you the mistress that the individual you just shot down went through hell to get to where they are just to be with you the master or with you the mistress. They have already made the sacrifices to be a boy or girl, having sacrificed their families, their friends, their chances for employment just to be that boy or girl you have always wanted as your submissive.


Going back and reading the initial OP..this segment alone says it all.

Hope you find what you seek

starshine




Lockit -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 1:38:12 PM)

This is just a section of a piece on passive aggressive behavior I wrote not too long ago.  I cannot put the full piece here, but thought this bit might be useful.  There is healing, but one first must see they need to be healed.
 
Passive Aggressive...   
 
Passive aggressive behavior seems to stem from anger.  Often that anger comes from childhood.  The passive aggressive person will often seem to be pleasant and happy and will hold resentments within, often building up inside with different outcomes of release.  Some will be very cruel and demeaning, others will explode in anger and then there are other's that will make snide remarks or expressions while trying to seem as though they are not doing so.  Some will present themselves as being reasonable and yet slam dunk someone with comments that maybe, they only will understand, leaving others to think there was nothing amiss.  In other words, they hide their anger behind a smile and only their intended victim will know what has happened.  Others will accept whatever is happening and file the incident away, to bring out later when they are in less control.  

The anger that is built up within them, from life wounds will often damage how they view themselves and others.  They have been neglected and abused quite often or will view themselves as a victim of neglect and abuse and they will see the world as a victim with others out to get them.  They seem to look for an attack or insult and are defensive even when they do not need to be.  They see what someone says as an attack even if the person was not attacking.  They will view conversation as if everything is about themselves and will take things as a personal assault against them.  Their communication is often confusing because they are confusing what is happening.  Then they will shift the blame of faulty communications and will try to defend themselves and their 'rightness' by using reason.  Often times their reasoning seems reasonable, but if one takes a deeper look, they will see that passive aggressive patterns of communication will indeed be present.  

Some will not be defensive or passive aggressive with everyone they communicate with.  It may only be with those persons that they care about most, because those people have the power to hurt them.  Because they have strong emotions and could be wounded by someone they care about, they will become defensive because they expect to be hurt, because they always have been before.  

We are dealing with a lot of hurt, anger and fear.  Passive aggressive behavior seems to me to be a self preservation or way of protecting themselves and being validated.  They have been devalued at some point in life and have been hurt and they now have a learned behavior of expecting to be hurt.  To protect themselves, they will create ways of communication that they see as good and reasonable to justify what they do to protect themselves.   

When confronted by someone who can see a pattern and recognize it as being passive aggressive, they will often deny everything and will deflect the conversation to the faults of the other person or change the topic of conversation by sidetracking.  Often times they will admit to having some small problem, but are not accepting how serious the problem is.  They lesson the impact of their behavior and excuse it, so that they can feel justified in whatever has been said or done to protect themselves from known or unknown, real or unrealistic attacks from another person.  

Trying to talk to someone who is hurt, angry and fearful, who manifest passive aggressive behavior is a maddening and frustrating position to be in.  If the passive aggressive speaker is able to see their wounds, anger and fear and are able to accept that they do things in a manner that proves they are hurt, angry and fearful, things will go better.  But if you have someone who continues to defend their words or actions and continues to use this defensive mechanism, things will not go well.   

Conversations will result in angry feelings and words that cannot be taken back and cannot and should not be forgiven unless there is accountability in the situation and with the wounded person who now wounds.  They wound themselves, their life and anyone involved with them because they are not able to see clearly what is happening and accept that there is a problem that needs to be addressed, healed and brought to a healthier place.  

The enlightened passive aggressive will sound very intellectual and aware and will sound very reasonable in their interpretation of whatever has taken place.  They use common sense and pop psychology to prove their enlightenment and motive for addressing personal problems or issues.  Yet, they will continue to cover up their passive aggressive words or actions by stating that they have some issue, but it is being addressed and yet they continue the pattern because they cannot face the anger and pain that is behind it.  
 




stella41b -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 4:27:34 PM)

Now I realise that I am breaking my word of yesterday in coming back onto this thread but I'm doing so one last time, not to address Aszhrae, but to address everyone else.

I don't feel any satisfaction from the way this thread has gone, with my involvement in this thread, with Aszhrae's reactions to my postings and the postings of others who have also tried to reach out and help her. I'm coming back to acknowledge the fact that rightly or wrongly Aszhrae is hurting from our postings, she may feel vulnerable, attacked, confused, and isolated. Is there any point in any of us pointing out any of her issues yet even further? I feel not.

I don't feel any animosity towards Aszhrae, I don't feel offended, or rather now that I have a better understanding of her circumstances I'm refusing to feel any offense as to how she addressed me, and I'd like to make it clear here on the boards that I don't feel that she owes me an apology. What she wrote, together with the original discussion and points raised in this thread appear no longer significant, I refuse to feel any pity for her, nor feel sorry for her.

Strange as it may seem I actually care about Aszhrae, I am concerned about her welfare and what happens to her, despite all what has been written and all what has been discussed on this thread. Why? Well some of you who know me a little more than my postings and what is on these boards may be able to work it out, or perceive that perhaps of many of the posters here I have shared similar or the same experiences as she has, I have taken similar steps along the same journey, and I am perhaps emotionally and mentally some way further down the road to recovery and healing that she is.

I too am a domestic service submissive, and much of what she experienced in her periods of service (I am taken everything she has written at face value) I experienced the same in my childhood, I was beaten, abused, I have lost almost all my family, and even up until last year I have had issues with supporting myself and living independently. The very same attitudes which she is expressing here in this thread were the very same attitudes I was expressing back in 2003 and 2004 in Warsaw. Her medium is these threads, mine was theatre. I was as much the architect of my own downfall as anyone else. However I am not Aszhrae, and even if there are so many similarities, there are also differences.

I feel it is time to be positive. What can we learn from this thread? This much I feel we can learn. So many of you have posted on this thread maintaining that you have the right to choose whatever partner you like, and not to have a partner who is transgendered. I am in complete agreement with this, i have no issues with this whatsoever, as I have posted earlier. But I also feel it is worth pointing out that we do live in an imperfect world, and yet so many of us forget in our own rush for the ideal, the perfect, the best we can, our match that we often fail to realise or even notice what life can really be like for someone who is not clearly of one specific gender.

I'm asking you all to stop and think here, just for a minute. Let's just look beyond relationships and sexual partners for a moment. Let's take a more general look at this. This also involves the blanket sympathy that many in society affords the transgendered. There's just been Thanksgiving, right? How many of you would have been prepared to prepare a place at the table for someone transgendered? How many of you meet in your daily lives transgendered people living and working like the rest of the general population, in offices, working in shops, in banks, in stores, etc?

Okay, so now stop a think a little further. Think about your own lives, and all the people in your lives, employers, family, partners, friends, neighbours. Now try to imagine what your life would be like if you did not have that gender recognition that the non-transgendered take for granted. Ladies, try to imagine what it feels like to have a penis, and to have everybody trying to determine if you have that penis or not before even choosing to interact with you. Imagine being laughed at, stared at, ridiculed, rejected, ignored, verbally abused and even physically attacked just for having that penis. Guys, try to imagine that you can only achieve peace of mind by being accepted as a woman, and you as you are now have to go out on a daily basis and achieve and seek that acceptance. Could you do it?

Please don't feel that I'm attacking or criticizing anyone here, I'm not. I'm just trying to communicate to you how it feels to be transgendered. How would the above impact your life? How would other people react? How would you cope with their reactions? Would you find the strength and determination to be able to cope with this on a daily basis? Can you not see how restrictive and limiting it can be on someone's life?

Let's not forget the way the world is now, how many people are struggling just to keep body and soul together, just how hard it is to find a job, to find somewhere to live even, and now just try to imagine how hard it must be for the transgendered to compete with those who aren't transgendered and aren't struggling to cope with such issues.

You may see some, every so often, but these are the tip of the iceberg, there are many hidden away, not working, a considerable number in domestic service, even more in prostitution, and yet also a considerable number who have chosen - the only choice they can make - to make that sacrifice and not face up to the stress and challenges of gender reassignment, who don't get to surgery, and those who commit suicide as a result. There are no statistics, because for one the dead body is that of a male, and secondly because some don't choose to leave behind an explanation.

I'd also like to make a point that this thread is now in it's 8th page, and the focus all along has been on Aszhrae herself. But there were more people in this story, and nobody realy looked at the othert characters - the couples in whose service she had been. What can we make of that couple? Was this a couple who have taken care of Aszhrae who they accepted into their service, or is this a couple who have exploited Aszhrae for their own needs? Can we really expect Aszhrae, who we now know appears to be broken, and suffering from issues, to shoulder the entire responsibility for her situation? Take a look at her, how she posts, and what conclusions can we draw from the care she either placed herself in or was placed under? And what of her welfare?

A question to the dominants reading this. You have someone like Aszhrae in your service for 18 years. Would you be happy with, or even proud of, the way she has turned out today?

And yet this is the lifestyle for many a transgendered domestic service submissive.. Let's not forget that Aszhrae is perhaps one of the few who has some access to a computer, and there may be many more who are not even allowed near a computer. What does their lifestyle look like? Can you imagine? And can you see the point I am making?

Now I am assuming that who we choose as a sexual partner, for a relationship or even for play is no longer an issue, and that we are in full agreement that freedom of choice exists.

However I'm asking you to consider in your own hearts and minds granting me a couple of requests which I would like to make. Whether you decide to do or, or even need to do so or not, is entirely your decision. I'd like to achieve some sort of change here, to bring something positive out of this thread, and I am looking to each and every one of you to support and help me in making these changes.

I'd like to make the world , or even our corner of the world a little more trans-friendly and supportive. Care to lend a hand? Care to go over what our needs are?

1. Firstly I'd like us to cut Aszhrae some slack here. She hasn't responded in 8 pages to what we have done to try and help her, and so it's clear she needs more time to get over herself and her issues and I'd like us to try and allow her more time to be able to do this.

2. Secondly if you come across someone transgendered who is transitioning, presenting or identifying as their acquired gender, please give them that recognition. Does it really matter if they're passable? I mean, how many of you men and women are really passable? This is something they need, and really helps them overcome their issues, brings some relief to their stress, and brightens up their day. If you're not sure, please don't assume, ask. Asking them such a simple and direct question as 'How would you like me to address you?' shouldn't be offensive.

3. Don't be afraid of meeting someone transgendered and spending time socially with them. Don't be afraid. You simply being with them removes any sort of social stigma which they might face. Also they make strong supportive friends, considering the amount of shit they have to put up with.

4. This might be hard for some, but I'm asking that we wipe the slate clean in this thread and give Aszhrae a second chance to develop that wonderful caring support network among us all here on CM which has helped me and many others.

Is this too much to ask?




aravain -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/29/2008 4:41:43 PM)

Here here, Stella




Rule -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/30/2008 12:34:08 AM)

Actually what I recall of Aszhrae's profile is quite positive, especially her spiritual development.
 
I do think that she was taken advantage of by her masters - but that was the deal she accepted. I also do think that her masters were neglicent in not providing for her an education in a back up profession - but that also is water under the bridge.
 
One of my close neighbours was born a hermaphrodite - and of course got the wrong (female) body parts removed, I suspect. Xhe is quite the drama queen.
 
One of my friends or acquaintances got herself transgendered male to female. I only heard about it afterwards. She broke all contact with us and I have not seen her since - which does hurt.




thishereboi -> RE: Verification: more harm than good (11/30/2008 6:03:41 AM)

It has been said before, but I am going to say it again...stella, you rock.

Awesome post.




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