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Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 9:06:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		OK. He is hardly out selling airport novels but even I've noticed people (not just young people either) reading Das Kapital in the more fashionable bars in Berlin.
 
And suddenly too, some of the all-but-forgotten Marxist philosophers are having their say again, such as the historian Eric Hobsbawm.
 
"Globalisation, which is implicit in capitalism, not only destroys the heritage and tradition but it is incredibly unstable, it operates through a series of crises, and I think this has been recognised to be the end of this particular era," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7679758.stm

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 9:23:32 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		They say hhistory repeats itself, teh first time as tragedy, the second as farce.  In truth, Marx never went out of fashion, as all the western goverments have imported such of his ideas as they could all along.  What other explanation for current woes over immigration than the Iron Law on Wages?  Although the implementation of the minimum wage might make it seem to some he was wrong, there's no getting away from his thinking in our modern world.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 9:42:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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What is it with the Karl Marx fetish? This is 19th century economic theory. OF COURSE it is now part of our world, and of course it is flawed in many ways. Anybody here claim to predict the economic events of the nest century and a half?

Same, frankly, with the Adam Smith fetish--18th century economic theory. Completely free markets were an idea predating industrial economies. Some good thought, and some erroneous thought, especially regarding market externalities.

Funny thing is, I see posters slamming "Marxist" ideas as essentially neo-feudalism, when Marx made exactly that claim regarding capitalism.

Well, I guess it's easier to blame than to solve.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/26/2008 9:43:27 AM >

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 9:56:06 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Are you misinterpreting my post as one "slamming" Marxist ideas?

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 9:59:44 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		RL,

~FR~ means "Fast Reply," hence not a post specifically replying to you.

As I'm sure you've noticed, these threads bleed into each other, and the Marxist point has been a popular charge.

So I'm neither interpreting nor misinterpreting your post. I'm commenting via a Fast Reply. In fact, if anything, my comments could be taken as supporting your post, even while not responding to them.

Thank you for understanding.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/26/2008 10:01:41 AM >

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 10:20:08 AM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		Why do people keep quoting Adam Smith, when he died in 1790, and was talking about  largely agrarian economic system which is certainly not true today.

thornhappy

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 10:45:58 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		i dunno about out there in the real world but in academic land Marx has never not been in fashion. Its cool to be left wing as a student you have to know your fair share about Marx, the only people i remember having much of a dislike for him were feminists.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 10:58:10 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Why do people keep quoting Adam Smith

Because his economic model is the one that works, as opposed to Marx's model, which is the one that doesn't.


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 10:59:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Ah. That explains the incredible success of the U.S. economy in the 19th century.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:17:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Marx is far more than an economic theory and he himself implied his work was contemporary and ethereal because as he pointed out, and I paraphrase, if one stops thinking when one dead. What Marx points out by implication is that capitalism is a godless materialist philosophy that rides on the back of those that labour and will lunge from crisis to crisis. It was predicted as far back as 1913 that capitalism will suffer an economic crisis around this point in time. That is quite relevant today when governments will be making the average Joe who sweats for a living to pay for the refinancing of the capitalist system. It is ordinary people that are losing their livelihoods and houses, not the rich that got the world into this mess. Our economic system should come under scrutiny and a neo-Marxist forensic eye is as good as any, especially for young people who see  themselves as victims of capitalist greed and the destruction capitalism is bringing to the planet. 

Unfortunately Marx has been associated with red China and the USSR in a way Jesus was never tainted with the visciousness of the Crusades, the Conquistadors, African slavery, the Holocaust or the bombing of Cambodia. Even though Marx never advocated oppression in the same way Jesus never advocated mass murder and slavery.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:19:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Why do people keep quoting Adam Smith

Because his economic model is the one that works, as opposed to Marx's model, which is the one that doesn't.



Capitalism worked because western countries controled trade, commited mass murder and stole land and resources. That goes for the US, (remember Manifest destiny?) as it does for the European empires.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:20:21 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

What Marx points out by implication is that capitalism is a godless materialist philosophy that rides on the back of those that labour and will lunge from crisis to crisis.

Actually, that's communism and the watered down (but still degenerate) variant socialism.


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:23:54 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Why do people keep quoting Adam Smith, when he died in 1790, and was talking about  largely agrarian economic system which is certainly not true today.

thornhappy


Because Smith saw the western economic future and unlike the current capitalist propaganda, WAS a protectionist. He wrote that England should protect its harbors and its industrial base that he knew BTW, was coming.

He knew over 200 years ago that a countries 'wealth' was in its geographic advantages and how its development exploited them (and commodities) and its manufacturing (industrial) base.

Adam Smith promoted free and unfettered markets otherwise but was not a modern capitalist of the paper-speculating kind we have today. His 'capitalism' wasn't at all...it was merchantilism.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:24:59 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What Marx points out by implication is that capitalism is a godless materialist philosophy that rides on the back of those that labour and will lunge from crisis to crisis.

Actually, that's communism and the watered down (but still degenerate) variant socialism.



I think you miss the point. Marx dismissed god and also pointed out the capitalist's godlessness even though capitalists invoke god to support their enslavement, exploitation and mass murder of people and the theft of their resources.

The reason we live in a relatively free society is because western governments were forced to incorporate some Marxist ideas into the western socio -economic system.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/26/2008 11:26:11 AM >

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:29:43 AM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		I don't miss anything.  Marx was a loser who spent his life sponging off other people--which describes his economic ideas perfectly.


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:36:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I don't miss anything.  Marx was a loser who spent his life sponging off other people--which describes his economic ideas perfectly.



I'll think you'll find Frederick Engels didn't mind paying for Marx because he saw he was a genious, in the same way Italian merchants saw the artists and philosophers in their time as geniuses that are worth paying for.

However, to paraphrase Oscar Wild, a capitalist knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/26/2008 11:38:29 AM >

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:44:36 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I'll think you'll find Frederick Engels didn't mind paying for Marx because he saw he was a genious

More like I found Engels a blithering idiot....


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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:45:12 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What Marx points out by implication is that capitalism is a godless materialist philosophy that rides on the back of those that labour and will lunge from crisis to crisis.

Actually, that's communism and the watered down (but still degenerate) variant socialism.


Actually Marx was correct AND so is celticlord. ALL economic systems exploit labor. Labor is your ONLY wealth.

The differences are in just who benefits most ...most from it.

Communism: the communist party and govt. as its politburo commands benefit. Historically corrupted by the party because there are few benefits.

Capitalism: the paper-traders and speculators where labor is the bases of wealth behind their paper and are conscripted (forced) to insure (against the speculation) of the investor class. Historically corrupted by the capitalist because of the immense wealth attainable, relentlessly and jealously pursued.

Socialism: shares the wealth and risk and is usually corrupted by govt. and its never-ending political pursuit for equality...of economic outcomes. 

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:46:54 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		problem is that all economic systems needs someone o take charge and that means that all economic systems with be corrupt becuase people are greedy.

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RE: Karl Marx back in fashion? - 11/26/2008 11:47:15 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Labor is your ONLY wealth.

Clarification:  MY labor is MY wealth.  YOUR labor is YOUR wealth.  (unless you belong to a union, in which case your labor is someone else's wealth).


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