RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 4:45:13 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

You make a compelling argument for your reading of the ammendment,and yet despite your well reasoned and persuasive dissecting of the sentence,a quick google search and this can be found.....
The Supreme Court stated in Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275 (1897):

“The law is perfectly well settled that the first ten amendments to the Constitution, commonly known as the "Bill of Rights," were not intended to lay down any novel principles of government, but simply to embody certain guaranties and immunities which we had inherited from our English ancestors, and which had, from time immemorial, been subject to certain well recognized exceptions arising from the necessities of the case. In incorporating these principles into the fundamental law, there was no intention of disregarding the exceptions, which continued to be recognized as if they had been formally expressed. Thus, the freedom of speech and of the press (Art. I) does not permit the publication of libels, blasphemous or indecent articles, or other publications injurious to public morals or private reputation; the right of the people to keep and bear arms (Art. II) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons;..."..

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 12/1/2008 4:46:22 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 201

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 5:42:26 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

Wow, that's the first time I've ever read an argument that Gun regulations led to the rise of Nazism and Stalinism.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 202

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 5:48:47 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

Why would you confuse imperialism & state funded guerilla warfare with civil Gun regulations?

I suppose you don't see any irony in the fact that the US invaded IRAQ to disarm it.....

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 203

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 7:31:47 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

the right of the people to keep and bear arms (Art. II) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons;...".

And?

I'm not in favor of concealed weapons either. Open carry makes far more sense tactically, socially, and psychologically.

_____________________________

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 204

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 8:28:40 PM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

As I mentioned previously Kentucky has very liberal views on the open carrying of weapons.

Section 1, clause 7:

"The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the state, subject to the power of the general assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons"

One handed Uncle Nasty

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 205

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 8:29:33 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

No, I stated that we have inherent Rights, but not inherent Responsibilities.

I never said that people SHOULDN'T be responsible, I stated that we didn't have any "by default".

We as a society hold those people responsible/accountable, but people don't inherently have those responsibilities.

.........utter gibberish. Whatever authority that grants rights, also gives responsibilities. If you believe otherwise how about laying out precisely why responsibilities don't come from the same place as rights?

Last I checked, it was the "Bill of Rights" not "Bill of Responsibilities."

OK, so show me where Responsibilities come from then...

Oh wait, we have neither Rights nor Responsibilities then...you've convinced me.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 206

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 8:31:32 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

The realities of gun ownership? The realities are that you take care of them and use them properly, like any other tool. And secure them, like any dangerous tool. That is, if you accept responsibility for owning them.

And yet we have had numerous people saying on this very thread that this "tool" is of no use unless it is loaded and within easy reach.

Apparently to fend off the hordes of crackheads, rapists, and evildoers ready to kick in the front door of anyone they suspect is not heavily-armed.

Why do you assume that it has to be locked up to be secure?

Mine is very secure, in my pocket or my hand or on my dresser or in my car.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 207

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 10:56:15 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL:Crush

Why do you assume that it has to be locked up to be secure?

Mine is very secure, in my pocket or my hand or on my dresser or in my car.

I'm sure Barney Fife Burress thought the same.

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 208

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 11:11:04 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Funny, I still remember the video of that cop hiding behind a tree and flinching everytime he heard gunfire comming from that classroom building at Virginia Tech.

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 209

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 11:28:25 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Funny, I still remember the video of that cop hiding behind a tree and flinching everytime he heard gunfire comming from that classroom building at Virginia Tech.

Well., it's late and I was out pounding a few, so you're going to have to elaborate because I'm not getting it.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 210

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/1/2008 11:36:53 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Last I checked, it was the "Bill of Rights" not "Bill of Responsibilities."

OK, so show me where Responsibilities come from then...

...the constitution.....

"With all these rights listed and guaranteed by the Constitution, many believe that the Constitution must impose a great number of responsibilities upon the individual as well. This is not the case. No where will you find an explicit list of responsibilities that the Constitution imposes.
However, the Constitution assumes some civil duties, and these are inherent in the Constitution.
For example, the Constitution presumes lawfulness. It is a responsibility, then, to obey the law. For those who do not, there are protections, but the presumption of lawfulness is apparent.
The Constitution sets rules for a conviction for treason against the United States. This presumes loyalty to the United States. It is a responsibility, then, to be loyal to the United States
The Constitution presumes juries, particularly an impartial one. It is a responsibility, then, to serve as an impartial juror when called.
The Constitution presumes an army and a navy, and provides the Congress with the power to raise armies. Service during war is also mentioned. It is a responsibility, then, to serve in the armed forces when called.
The Constitution is peppered with amendments that expanded the right to vote - many people, over several centuries, have worked hard to bring the vote to as many people as possible. With few exceptions, all persons, 18 or older, can vote in any public election. It is a responsibility, then, to vote."

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_resp.html

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 211

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/2/2008 6:07:49 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

OK, so show me where Responsibilities come from then...

Oh wait, we have neither Rights nor Responsibilities then...you've convinced me.

There is no escaping the simple reality that rights and responsibilities must occur simultaneously or not at all. The enjoyment of a right includes at a minimum the responsibility to nurture that right. As with all things, if we fail to nurture a right, if we fail to cherish a right, we will, in due time, lose that right. History teaches this in abundance.

Thus, the right of free speech includes the responsibility to actually speak freely--to articulate one's ideas, and to engage in a free-flowing exchange of ideas. The right of peaceable assembly includes the responsibility to assemble peaceably--to congregate with one's neighbors to grow and strengthen the community.

The right to keep and bear arm includes the responsibility to keep and bear arms--and by "keep" I mean the responsibility to not merely possess, but also to maintain and preserve, to use wisely and not use recklessly.

There is no right that does not entail concomitant responsibilities--first to the right, then to oneself, and finally to others. The one is never enjoyed without the other, the one cannot be accepted without the other, the one cannot be possessed without the other.

Rights and responsibilities are inseparable--legally, ethically, and practically.

_____________________________

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 212

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/2/2008 6:29:12 AM

hellfarmer

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/26/2008
Status: offline

Celticlord and philosophy put it extremely well. I believe that Reps and Dems both believe that individual liberties should properly be infringed upon for the betterment of a greater society. I however believe that unless an activity has a victim, that activity should not be regulated by the government. I'm all about individual liberty. Owning a gun doesnt make a victim, using or keeping that gun in an illegal manner does. I know its been covered a zillion times but it is relevant that the framers felt that it was extremely important for a citizenry to be armed. Hell the reason we chose to nuke japan was because the population was fanatically devoted to the Emperor and would fight invading US soldiers down to the man woman and child with whatever weapons could be found.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 213

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/2/2008 7:32:40 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Simply Michael there is something about that "cling desperately" line that is buzzing around my head.Seems I have heard it before....something about clinging to religion and guns....oh well it will come to me in due time(can swear I've heard this before...hmmm)

Mike,

Since I am an atheist and a rather well known left wing liberal, you once again are barking up the wrong tree. I notice you tossed aside my facts as "opinion" but any chance you could come up with a fact or two to refute them? Oh, I don't know, perhaps a single state constitution from that period that supports your "POV"?

To me "clinging desperately" refers to those who stand on a many legged stool and no matter how many legs are shown to be false simply claims the remaining ones are even stronger.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 214

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/2/2008 8:49:41 AM

subrob1967

Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterBruce

its time to take all the guns away and have the poilce controll when you can use them for things like hunting

Like they did for drugs, and Doctors?

(in reply to masterBruce)

Post #: 215

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/2/2008 5:27:07 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL:Crush

Why do you assume that it has to be locked up to be secure?

Mine is very secure, in my pocket or my hand or on my dresser or in my car.

I'm sure Barney Fife Burress thought the same.

His round was in his pocket. My first round is in the pipe and ready.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 216

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/2/2008 5:33:39 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

OK, so show me where Responsibilities come from then...

Oh wait, we have neither Rights nor Responsibilities then...you've convinced me.

There is no escaping the simple reality that rights and responsibilities must occur simultaneously or not at all. The enjoyment of a right includes at a minimum the responsibility to nurture that right. As with all things, if we fail to nurture a right, if we fail to cherish a right, we will, in due time, lose that right. History teaches this in abundance.

Thus, the right of free speech includes the responsibility to actually speak freely--to articulate one's ideas, and to engage in a free-flowing exchange of ideas. The right of peaceable assembly includes the responsibility to assemble peaceably--to congregate with one's neighbors to grow and strengthen the community.

The right to keep and bear arm includes the responsibility to keep and bear arms--and by "keep" I mean the responsibility to not merely possess, but also to maintain and preserve, to use wisely and not use recklessly.

There is no right that does not entail concomitant responsibilities--first to the right, then to oneself, and finally to others. The one is never enjoyed without the other, the one cannot be accepted without the other, the one cannot be possessed without the other.

Rights and responsibilities are inseparable--legally, ethically, and practically.

Nope...we don't have to accept responsibilities in any sense of the word...many people don't. But they still have rights, bless their hearts. We don't have a responsibility to protect our rights. It is foolish not to accept that responsibility, but many people are foolish.

=========
I have no inherent responsibility to others. Society wants me to have them, but I can have all these rights and live in the woods up on a mountain and live completely off the land....our ancestors did it. But we gave up that unlimited freedom when we decided to cooperate with others and accepted a responsibility to the group. Hence civilization. And war.
===========

Actually, all we really have are "Biological Imperatives" which we can freely ignore at our own peril.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 217

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/2/2008 7:17:52 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

It is foolish not to accept that responsibility, but many people are foolish.

Indeed......

_____________________________

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 218

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/3/2008 5:29:28 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Personally sat over here on the other side of the Atlantic it always amuses me the lengths some people go to in justifying the ownership of an item specifically designed to kill people.

And this is posted on a forum where a vast majority of people own items specifically designed for torture.

Yes, it is amusing.

Bottom line. Responsible actions are responsible actions.

Shrug.

(in reply to susie)

Post #: 219

RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 12/3/2008 8:01:23 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

If I may point out, even if you took away firearms, there are still going to be ways for criminals to get them. Just as there are laws against illegal drugs, you still find them on the streets.

As proven the world over, gun elimination laws do not eliminate guns from the criminal element. Thus the argument that eliminating guns would make it impossible for criminals to get them is flawed from the beginning.

Legal ownership and registration of firearms is the most logical solution.

And it is extremely humorous to find someone arguing a point of owning items that are inherently designed to kill people in a forum where most actually own various torture devices.

I must also point out that every household has items designed to kill people, if people desire to use them in that manner.

Lastly, I really hate to be the bearer of bad news to the "anti-gun" fanatics who happen to also be members of this forum, there are alternatives to the traditional firearms available now in DIY form.

Rail guns and Gauss guns, once only items in the world of science fiction are viable alternatives to chemically fired weapons.

Both weapons can be powered by a rechargeable battery packs adapted from anything from power tools to cell phones.

Regardless if you are using nails, bb's, milled stainless steel, or any metal that can be affected by a powerful electromagnetic field, the weapons are deadly, and at extended ranges.

They do not make a sound when fired, leave no marks on the projectile, with ranges limited only to the amount of power used to generate the electromagnetic field and the length of the barrel.

Gaussian pistols are effective and deadly up to 50 meters, while Gaussian rifles can be accurate and deadly out to 2000 meters depending on the power supply.

A standard over the counter rechargeable battery pack for a remote controlled car can power such a weapon for as many as a thousand rounds, and depending on the size of the projectile, that could prove dangerous for a few people downrange.

Finally, the really bad news, I suggest you all google the term DIY rail gun or DIY Gauss gun and see just how many results you get, and almost all of them have detailed instructions on creating these very deadly and very compact weapons.

By the way, the capaciters needed for either weapon type can be gotten for free at any photo processing center, just ask manager for the discarded disposable cameras with the flash feature. If asked why, tell him you are working on a garden guage railroad and need the capaciters to power track switches.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 220

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