RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (Full Version)

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Lynnxz -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 8:20:16 AM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Kennesaw... *snort*

I'd be willing to bet that the KKK dude (wildman, he calls himself) owns more guns than the entire rest of Kennesaw (proper AND incorporated, combined)


Off topic.

God what a freak this guy is. Even his BICYCLE has an enormous rebel flag on it, I don't know how it doesn't get caught up in the tires... But you'll see him riding down the sidewalk cussing at anyone who doesn't look strictly white, until everyone throws trash at him.



Rule -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 8:31:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
It has been more than a year since
 gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own Government

Indications are that the Australian government is intending a genocide upon its citizens.



Rule -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 8:40:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy
a respectable, clean record holding man walked into a nursery school and started shooting children with a fully licenced gun.
Shortly afterwards we banned handguns for ever. Full stop.
Hm, if I wanted to ban handguns for ever, full stop, in preparation for a later planned genocide on the British population, I would commission a respectable, clean record holding man, preferably in either a boiler hat or in a top hat, to walk into a nursery school and to start shooting children with a fully licenced gun. So I wonder: who commisioned that respectable man to do so? (I am paranoid that way.)



philosophy -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 9:56:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Hm, if I wanted to ban handguns for ever, full stop, in preparation for a later planned genocide on the British population, I would commission a respectable, clean record holding man, preferably in either a boiler hat or in a top hat, to walk into a nursery school and to start shooting children with a fully licenced gun. So I wonder: who commisioned that respectable man to do so? (I am paranoid that way.)


quote:

Indications are that the Australian government is intending a genocide upon its citizens.


.....yup, paranoid.

What possible reason would a western government have to plan a genocide on its own citizens?



celticlord2112 -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 10:08:02 AM)

quote:

What possible reason would a western government have to plan a genocide on its own citizens?

For some IN government, genocide might be seen as the pathway to greater power.

Evil won't have "good" reasons, but that doesn't mean it lacks all reason.



philosophy -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 10:17:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What possible reason would a western government have to plan a genocide on its own citizens?

For some IN government, genocide might be seen as the pathway to greater power.

Evil won't have "good" reasons, but that doesn't mean it lacks all reason.


...well i could imagine an individual within government having such thoughts, but not a whole government. Whatever one thinks of governments in general, many of those people in them are at least trying to be good people.......even if they're wrong about the means.
But genocide? How does that solidify power for anyone?  One thing about the Nazi holocaust is that it has alerted people to the possibility. That includes members of a nations armed forces and police. My brother is a copper (an armed one at that) and he's a twat too......but even he wont stand for government sponsered genocide. The idea that banning handguns is part of a long term, wide spread conspiracy to commit genocide seems to me to be paranoid scaremongering sophistry........



Mercnbeth -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 10:28:14 AM)

quote:

What possible reason would a western government have to plan a genocide on its own citizens?


Philo,
Perhaps 'sane' minds can't contemplate such reasoning, let alone allow for the possibility of insane reasoning becoming a national policy. History however is full of examples where opportunity is the only "reason" required.

For example, when the Weimar regime introduced and put in place the "Law on Firearms and Ammunition" in 1928 Germany the 'good intent' was to disarm the private armies such as the 'brown-shirts' or Nazi SA.

Once in power, the Nazi regime, a "western government", not only attempted but put in place a policy of genocide on its own citizens. The relative ease of implementing a sanctioned policy of genocide was accomplished as product of liberal 'good intent'. 

Now it may not have been a direct cause and effect; however knowing your target has been rendered relatively impotent to act in their own defense creates, at the very least, a lot of confidence. In fact I'd submit that some of the "reasoning" considered the defenselessness of the adversary targeted for genocide.

As they marched to the camps, I bet many of the men wearing metals to show not only their citizenship but service to Germany; wished they could have melted them down and used as bullets. However, 'good intent' had already removed the guns they could have used to defend themselves.



philosophy -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 10:34:18 AM)


"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

.....i genuinely think people have learned from the Nazi's......at least in Western nations. i don't think the rest of the population would turn a blind eye, as so many did in Germany. And, as i mentioned earlier, that includes the armed forces and police. However, i still think Rule is being paranoid when he states that gun control is being done in Australia and the UK to explicitly set up a genocide.



SilverMark -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 10:40:23 AM)

As a resident of the mailing address Kennesaw, Ga., not the town, the gun law has never been enforced and Greedy is correct Dent probably does own more guns than the rest of the area. Since the 70's Kennesaw has become an affluent bedroom community and has(thank God) gotten past the era of a gun in every household. If the crime rate plummeted in a town that small it means one less burglary or someone passed on stealing a bicycle. It was never a high crime area by any stretch of the imagination.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 10:52:58 AM)

quote:

...well i could imagine an individual within government having such thoughts, but not a whole government. Whatever one thinks of governments in general, many of those people in them are at least trying to be good people.......even if they're wrong about the means.
But genocide? How does that solidify power for anyone? One thing about the Nazi holocaust is that it has alerted people to the possibility. That includes members of a nations armed forces and police. My brother is a copper (an armed one at that) and he's a twat too......but even he wont stand for government sponsered genocide. The idea that banning handguns is part of a long term, wide spread conspiracy to commit genocide seems to me to be paranoid scaremongering sophistry........

The Holocaust alerted people to the possibility, but did not stop ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, nor the genocides in Rwanda and the Darfur region of Sudan.

How does genocide solidify power? Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, and others demonstrate the considerable power of demonizing a portion of the population as a precursor to establishing greater control over the remainder.

Would most in a government stand still for genocide? Yes, actually. With slow steps and the right preparation, people will accept a great deal of inhumanity to others.

Now, if the Australian government attempted to round up and cart off a sizable chunk of the population right today, yes, a great many would object. With enough malicious rhetoric targeting a specific group, and a proper building of a case "in the public's best interest", could such a round-up occur without generating much protest? History tends to suggest that, sadly, it can.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 12:33:13 PM)

Martin Niemöller's poem may not have needed to have been written were the citizens able to stand behind their beliefs with weapons made illegal by a result of his religious "belief" the basic 'good intent' of individuals and government. Neglecting to account for the possibility of a agenda behind the 'good intent' is irresponsible by a people and the government they elect to represent them. What can be done, will be done, by any individual or political party to put their agenda in place. Disarming the general public makes sure the majority of causalities are on the descending side; a nice poem dedicated to the consequence notwithstanding. It only documents what occurred. It doesn't excuse it or offer a means for future prevention. Were that the case where in the Western world is their the universal condemnation, let alone defining action, of the genocides currently going on throughout the world? Maybe as a remake for current times the good Reverend's poem should have another stanza added;  "In Darfur they are coming daily for the Fur, Massalit and Zaghawa tribes, and nobody gives a shit because there is nothing of value there AND I am not a member of the Fur, Massalit or Zaghawa tribes."

Then, seeing it in a poem, the "West" would be moved to act?
quote:

  .....i genuinely think people have learned from the Nazi's......at least in Western nations. i don't think the rest of the population would turn a blind eye, as so many did in Germany.


Genuine 'belief' and 'good intent' don't hold up against historical references of "Western nations" or humanity in general.

You need look no further than the death caused by 'Black Friday' shopping to see examples of the selfishness of the individual and the crowd mentality of complicity. One died the rest weren't effected and wanted to go on shopping; to the point of being upset when told the store was closing. In practice, humanity shows itself. In theory of course - we are all appalled! I say more were appalled that they had to leave without their $100 laptop than they were of the death!
quote:

...customers simply stepped over him and kept shopping even as the store announced it was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said.
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/29/police-seeking-walmart-sh_n_147069.html?page=2&show_comment_id=18393988#comment_18393988 


It's from this population pool that you expect people to, as the Reverend Niemöller suggests; "speak for you"?

Meanwhile, plans are in place for 20,000 troops to be deployed inside the US to 'protect' us, in theory, against terrorist attacks and/or other domestic catastrophe; damn 'good intent'! Wonder how some future agenda based administration can do with those troops. Wonder how much easier it will be to accomplish that agenda on an unarmed citizenry? (Reference:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217_pf.html )

Of course it's all paranoia, similar I'm sure to the label assigned to anyone in Germany protesting the Weimar action who did not foresee an insane agenda obtaining democratically elected power. Paranoid is planning for what never occurs. Foresight is the word used for the same preparation after the unthinkable becomes actual.

Spoken from the current personal condition of being a non-gun owner.

Wow - a reincarnated thread!
 
philo, I know we shared this via CM email. I appreciate your differentiating US mentality from the UK mentality on the subject; however how does that mentality apply to global issues? Since you quoted Martin Niemöller's poem and gave it as a response to a challenge to your position; why don't you think it applies only to the Nazi reference? Why shouldn't it be applied to current genocide being conducted?  



philosophy -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 12:49:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

philo, I know we shared this via CM email. I appreciate your differentiating US mentality from the UK mentality on the subject; however how does that mentality apply to global issues? Since you quoted Martin Niemöller's poem and gave it as a response to a challenge to your position; why don't you think it applies only to the Nazi reference? Why shouldn't it be applied to current genocide being conducted?  



....just as i draw a distinction between the US and the European experience of the gun ownership issue, so i see distinctions between what, for want of a better phrase, i'll call Western democracies and African nations. A big part of that difference is our access to media here and the maturity of our political systems. This portion of my responses on this thread have been meant to deal exclusively with Rules assertion that gun control laws in the UK and Australia are a conscious precursor to genocide on the part of those governments. Quite frankly i call BS on that. The populations of those two countries are more politically experienced than some of the examples drawn from Africa. Perhaps a little less trusting of authority and a lot more used to changing the direction a government takes. CL does make the fair point that a necessary precursor to a genocide is the demonisation of those to be..er....genocided. It's my belief that in the two countries i've been addressing that would be hard, if not impossible, to do.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 12:51:20 PM)

quote:

It's my belief that in the two countries i've been addressing that would be hard, if not impossible, to do.

I would argue that western media makes demonizing a target group easier, not harder.

As Mark Twain observed, a lie will get half way around the world before the truth even puts its shoes on--and he was speaking without the advantage of the Internet.



philosophy -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 1:04:36 PM)

What follows is a portion of the cmail i sent to Merc when we thought this thread had been pulled....sorry it's kind of out of sequence, but thought it fair to share it with you all........



My take on it is that first we have to accept that what works in one culture doesn't necessarily work in another. The US has a unique view of gun culture, and i'm thoroughly convinced it's not just a trivial thing but a cultural artefact of deep consequence to a large number of US citizens. i'd like to see a training requirement for gun ownership, in much the same way that one has to demonstrate one can drive a car safely before being legally on the roads, but that's it.
Europe however is different. Certainly in the UK we take to the streets much more readily than the US. Possibly because the chances of a gun being involved is much smaller than in the US. Those protests have a real effect on governmental policy. The poll tax demos back in the day being a strong example. Despite the odd pocket of racism the vast majority of UK citizens dislike bigotry intensely. The premise that a UK government would get away with genocide on its own citizens is ludicrous. The armed forces would rebel. No doubt about it.
It has been said that an armed society is a civil one.......the thing about civil societies is that they don't always shout out when someone is being an arsehole. Thus US society, it seems to me, is far more susceptible to a nazi-style genocide than Europe precisely because it is armed. Someone like the Walmart shopper who complained that they'd missed out on a bargain after the death of the unfortunate employee would have the shit kicked out of them if it happened in the UK. In fact, on a smaller scale i've seen it happen. The fact that armed response in the UK is extremely rare means that we are more likely to police ourselves, not less likely.
However, this too is a cultural artefact. We come from different cultural roots, despite our common language.....it's all good as far as i'm concerned. The US will find its own way to the future...but applying US sensibilities to Europe makes as much sense as the opposite...ie none.




philosophy -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 1:09:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I would argue that western media makes demonizing a target group easier, not harder.



...i'd argue the opposite......(bet that surprised you [:D] )

The key here is access and interactivity. essentially the story of media in recent years is democratisation. The media are no longer the province only of those rich enough to publish or broadcast. Certainly a lie can be more easily put out there, but nowadays so can the rebuttals. Instead of the simple dynamics of the old media we now have far more complex dynamics. i think it's now harder to demonise one group when everyone can pull apart that demonisation at the touch of a button.



LadyEllen -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 1:17:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
One thing about the Nazi holocaust is that it has alerted people to the possibility.


and yet on the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, the majority of youths questioned in the streets on its significance had no idea what Auschwitz might be

and yet, just yesterday my 18 year old sister wondered what my dad and I were talking about when we were discussing the significance of the arrest of an MP

and my kids have no idea about the plan to monitor and store their phone calls, SMS messages, emails and website visits

and here we have lots of people who have no experience of firearms aside from TV and movies and the paranoia foisted on them by the powers that be (government plus others), who just cant understand why its a problem to be denied as citizens and categorised as subjects

E



Mercnbeth -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 1:18:30 PM)

quote:

This portion of my responses on this thread have been meant to deal exclusively with Rules assertion that gun control laws in the UK and Australia are a conscious precursor to genocide on the part of those governments. Quite frankly i call BS on that. The populations of those two countries are more politically experienced than some of the examples drawn from Africa.


My error in thinking your Niemöller reference was to be applied globally. You're saying that selectively it applies to the US, UK, Australia an Europe, but those "more politically experienced" cultures shouldn't apply that standard in Africa.

My position is that for Niemöller's words to have any significance as viable philosophy they need to be viable and applied globally. If it isn't, as in the cases raised, its too easy to rationalize circumstantial non action; armed or unarmed as they were in Germany.
quote:

My take on it is that first we have to accept that what works in one culture doesn't necessarily work in another. The US has a unique view of gun culture, and i'm thoroughly convinced it's not just a trivial thing but a cultural artifact of deep consequence to a large number of US citizens. i'd like to see a training requirement for gun ownership, in much the same way that one has to demonstrate one can drive a car safely before being legally on the roads, but that's it.
Europe however is different. Certainly in the UK we take to the streets much more readily than the US. Possibly because the chances of a gun being involved is much smaller than in the US. Those protests have a real effect on governmental policy. The poll tax demos back in the day being a strong example. Despite the odd pocket of racism the vast majority of UK citizens dislike bigotry intensely. The premise that a UK government would get away with genocide on its own citizens is ludicrous. The armed forces would rebel. No doubt about it.
It has been said that an armed society is a civil one.......the thing about civil societies is that they don't always shout out when someone is being an arsehole. Thus US society, it seems to me, is far more susceptible to a nazi-style genocide than Europe precisely because it is armed. Someone like the Walmart shopper who complained that they'd missed out on a bargain after the death of the unfortunate employee would have the shit kicked out of them if it happened in the UK. In fact, on a smaller scale i've seen it happen. The fact that armed response in the UK is extremely rare means that we are more likely to police ourselves, not less likely.
However, this too is a cultural artifact. We come from different cultural roots, despite our common language.....it's all good as far as i'm concerned. The US will find its own way to the future...but applying US sensibilities to Europe makes as much sense as the opposite...ie none.

I think you gave your position concerning the issue but didn't respond to any. Its a function of finding the example "unthinkable". I'd wager that bigotry in the US is disliked by a majority similar to that found in the UK. However, I'd also stipulate that prior to the propaganda and focus a similar majority could be found in pre-Nazi Germany. What your position doesn't account for is change to the fundamental postulation that "the majority" would react similarly at all times under all conditions.

I also say that the cultural difference you reference is a function of self determination versus a socialist society. Granted the US is moving fast to a more socialist state of existence, but still has a long way to go to catch up with Europe. The ultimate self determination is to take care of defending yourself. As we move to serving 'good intent' and dependence on others to take care of us and our personal failures, you may see more moving to your position.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 1:27:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

It was to make a point that one does not have to live in "double wide alley" to live where there is a violent crime problem. Could have sworn you said in a post several months ago that you lived in Marietta, my bad.

Is there a place in Georgia where people do not own guns?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

1. I do not live in Marietta. My mailing address is Marietta.
2. Just what does your micro-rant have to do with my response to GT?

Close-in East Cobb near the river is more accurate. I don't know anywhere in GA where people don't own weapons. AFAIK, no one in my circle owns them.



philosophy -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 1:27:57 PM)

.....heh, just trying to pull together our cmail correspondence and the debate here..please bar with me.......

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

My error in thinking your Niemöller reference was to be applied globally. You're saying that selectively it applies to the US, UK, Australia an Europe, but those "more politically experienced" cultures shouldn't apply that standard in Africa.

My position is that for Niemöller's words to have any significance as viable philosophy they need to be viable and applied globally. If it isn't, as in the cases raised, its too easy to rationalize circumstantial non action; armed or unarmed as they were in Germany.


.....the reason i don't apply those words globally is exactly the same reason why i don't apply the US and the European experience of gun culture to each other. We have to start from where we are, but that exact location differs from country to country, culture to culture. Africa does not have the experience of a modern society, with all its luxuries and responsibilities that the US and Europe do. They will, in time, but not right now. It's not a question of should or shouldn't when it comes to applying values to different societies, it's whether they can or can't.

quote:

I think you gave your position concerning the issue but didn't respond to any. Its a function of finding the example "unthinkable". I'd wager that bigotry in the US is disliked by a majority similar to that found in the UK. However, I'd also stipulate that prior to the propaganda and focus a similar majority could be found in pre-Nazi Germany. What your position doesn't account for is change to the fundamental postulation that "the majority" would react similarly at all times under all conditions.

I also say that the cultural difference you reference is a function of self determination versus a socialist society. Granted the US is moving fast to a more socialist state of existence, but still has a long way to go to catch up with Europe. The ultimate self determination is to take care of defending yourself. As we move to serving 'good intent' and dependence on others to take care of us and our personal failures, you may see more moving to your position.


.....this last piece was taken from a cmail, so here's my cmail response....

You're right in that i find the idea of a UK or Australian government sponsored genocide in the foreseeable future unthinkable.....and equally right that that position is, of course, in the long term a logical fallacy. However, in the short to medium term things would have to happen that i simply don't see happening. Therefore, on the narrow point of calling BS on Rule, i don't think i'm wrong.

i agree wholly though on the idea that the US is more concerned with self determination, where Europe focusses on social organisation. Not necessarily socialist in the strict sense, perhaps something we could misleadingly call post-modern socialism....lol

However, here's the possible paradox.......does granting individuals full self determination actually result in individuals acting with less restraint on their actions or more? Certainly for some it will result in full freedom of action......but for some, perhaps a majority, there may be more restraints on their feedom of action. Social organisation attempts to level playing fields, no restraint may mean that the strong dominate the weak.......and as strong/weak is only a relative measure it may mean that the majority are less free in a free society than they would be in a partially regulated one.

To me it's about finding the sweet spot where the majority of people have the most freedom possible.......from my pov that inevitably means some restraints on freedom of action, but the balance is the important thing. i suppose this is a similar paradigm to the one i've been groping towards in my failure thread. Too far in any direction moves us away from the most efficient way of doing things in my view.........moderation is all things, including perhaps freedom. So that more people may be free.

Paradoxes are fun!

(edited for a couple of typos)



SilverMark -> RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you should give them up. (12/1/2008 1:29:23 PM)

Is there never a middle ground on this issue? Is there never a way to allow those who understand the responsibility of gun ownership to own them and those who do not, not to do so? Would it be too big of an infringement of rights to understand who it is that is buying something as powerful as a gun? Is registration too much to ask? A waiting period? The safeguards we have in place seem reasonable to me. Do we need more? Do we need less? I am not a gun owner, not a hunter, not a target shooter, I have no dog in the fight, as they say down here. Not an advocate in either case, just want to better understand those who I read so much from, on a topic I am less than educated on.



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