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RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/8/2004 9:55:13 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

That said, the interesting point of your question, for me at least, is in the concept of hindering or helping BDSM. What on earth do you mean by that???

ummm... However You read it... Angel means it... (didnt think it was that hard a question ~ sorry... lol)

I am not after ultimate definitions hunni... just interested in peoples thoughts & views.(hands Taggard a nice cup of tea... or coffee... or iced water... depending on His 'kink'....*grinning*)

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 21

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/8/2004 9:58:35 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

Labels are like shorthand, I think. The problem is that we all use them differently. I think it's helpful to define how *you* use the word, and make that clear to the person you're communicating with (as well as understanding how s/he uses it). Once you're both on the same page, then the labels simply serve to say the same thing with fewer words.

I don't label well, personally. I'm way too curvy to fit into little labelled boxes. And I always liked the sign one of my professors had in his office that said "Label jars, not people". Unfortunately, it's unlikely that we'll be able to avoid them completely. So, barring that, I think the best course of action is to simply define how we use the words clearly so that our meaning is understood.

I love the concept of 'BDSM shorthand'... thnx Sherri... & I totally agree with you on personal definitions...

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SherriA)

Post #: 22

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/8/2004 10:01:44 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBerlin

Let people think what they want, just don't let them assume. Communication.
It's all Circular.
As Always
Berlin

Amen to those words Belin. Thank You for Your insight...

Peace upon your endless, beautiful journey...

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to MzBerlin)

Post #: 23

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/8/2004 10:04:49 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavesuzieQ

Hello everyone, this is my second post 'cause I'm trying to get rid of that vanilla label under my name...lol Anyway... I think it's all subjective to the parties involved.. to most ( by the definitions I've seen on the net ) I would not be considered a slave, but for me, it is what I identify with, it is how I feel. The only opinion that matters to me is my Master's. In general I think we feel it's necessary to identify with others, as submissives or Dominants, hetero or homosexual, bi or switch etc. We have many labels in our lives... mother, sister, nurse, soccer mom... you get the picture. Now to get rid of that vanilla label.....

Keep posting hunni... lol... you will be indecent in no time... *giggles*
Thanks for responding with your very personal view... i love it & it is so very clear.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to slavesuzieQ)

Post #: 24

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/8/2004 11:00:48 AM

compes

Posts: 92
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
As you may have noticed, folks pick a label that is attractive to them for whatever reason, and then define the label so that it includes whatever it is that they like to do.

I guess that explains a profile I read several years ago about a Dom who called himself "Supreme Evil Monarch." He didn't seem to want to use anything more intense than clothespins. <shrugs>

Compes

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 25

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/9/2004 10:20:17 AM

MzBerlin

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Joined: 7/3/2004
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You, too, Angel-
Keep on rockin' and rollin' and lookin' for answers.
As Always-
Berlin

_____________________________

new pictures!! www.ropexpert.com
also- you can catch me on www.ksexradio.com every tuesday. I co-host Baadmasters' Dungeon!!

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 26

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/9/2004 9:37:25 PM

rain

Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
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Interesting topic,

Just had this same conversation with a friend of mine...

and i have to agree with Estring on this one, but would also like to say that it can be helpful when "dating" whether it's a D/s, poly, etc- to know the parameters of the relationship.

If there are too many things undefined, it can lead to miscommunication and confusion.

Just my two pennies.

~rain~

_____________________________

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today. - James Dean

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 27

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/10/2004 12:24:20 AM

WayHome

Posts: 237
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline

My definitions are different from those listed and I'm curious if they jive better with Sherri's or if there is yet another set of definitions i should be aware of.

Dominant-One who takes control in a power exchange relationship (might last 10 minutes or a lifetime)

Sub or submissive-One who gives up control in a power exchange(might last 10 minutes or a lifetime)

Dom-A male dominant.

Domme, Domina-A female dominant.

Dominatrix-A female who charges money to dominate.

Top-One who does (kinky) things to another, such as flogging, paddling, bondage, etc. This might be in the context of power exchange but not necessarily. A sadist is a subset of tops who is particularly fond of pain.

Bottom-One who has (kinky) things done to them, such as flogging, paddling, bondage, etc. This might be in the context of power exchange but not necessarily. A masochist is a subset of bottoms who is particularly fond of pain.

Master or Mistress-1)A dominant who has one or more long term subs or slaves. OR 2)A dominant who has been granted the title of "master" or "mistress" formally or informally by a particular society (such as Old Guard, a Leather Club, Gor, etc.)

Slave-too many definitions to keep track of. Might mean "really really submissive sub", or "full time sub", or a sub in a formal relationship defined by Gorean or other society, or a "sub without limits".

Pain slut-A masochist who is usually not really into the D/s end of things or who plays very hard.

Switch-One who tops and bottoms, or one who dominates and submits, or some combination. This definition should be self imposed and not used for someone who might play on the other side of the fence rarely for in order to learn or to help another if that person does not consider him or herself a switch.

None of these definitions have anything to do with experience or skill (except definition #2 under "master or mistress")

I find these definitions very useful because they help someone to know what it is that someone else is in to. For example, I can say,

"I am a Dom who is master to my wife and who has never subbed but who ocasionally bottoms so that he can know what a particular technique feels like or because sometimes it just feels good. My wife is a submissive with some switchy tendencies who has never dommed but has topped under my direction. She has only topped females before and would like to top a male someday, though she could never top me. Some day, if she gets the experience and confidence, she will do some dominant casual scenes with a sub."

And people familiar with these labels as I use them will know quite a bit about me and what I might be interested in.

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 28

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/10/2004 11:17:27 AM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

...and even here want the respect of such
a * label as you call it. I know I earned Mine.

I'm curious as to who bestowed the title "Mistress" upon you.

quote:

Takeing away labels will not help this
but only make it worse as We no longer can associate Ourselfs
with our positions and kinks, likes and dislikes and acceptance
from Our diverse groups in Alternates.

I associate myself with my given name. I am Master to my slave. To anyone else and their desire to know what my position, kinks, likes, dislikes are...hey..ASK me. As far as acceptance goes.. *shrugs*..I don't need someone elses acceptance to live my life the way I choose to.

quote:

Top n bottoms = beginners or casual players into the partime
bedroom side of the kink usually a year or less experiance. Stays
to their self in thier play and are in essance closet players. learn by
trial and error with out any outside assistance or mentors.

Dominants n submissives = passive players also partime but into the non sexual lifestyle kinks as well as the sex in the bedroom with usually more then a year and less then five years into the Lifestyle. Will meet in a group setting of like minds for play and learning. Usually hide what they practice lifestyle wise when crossing back and forth from a vanilla side of life.

Master/Mistress n slaves = experianced players in the lifestyle whom are
commited to its ways usually full time and incorperate it into their daily lifes. Experiance most everything thats a kink and are usually in position of Teaching and passing on their learned experiance and tecniques and have been in the lifestyle from five to fifteen years and usually have their
Own munchies groups or public dungeons and mentor others in the Lifestyles ways. Are members to long established BDSM Societies and earn Thier positions of Power with in such and should be given the respect earned in Their Living of the Lifestyle. Will usually have both Dominant and submissives They are mentoring or go out across the Country and mentor from Group to Group.

Lords/Ladys alphaslaves = Hardcore Lifestylers with 15 plus years 24/7 into the lifestyle in all aspects of their life and are the Leaders in bringing
acceptance to the Lifestyle in manyways publicly and usually hold positions of Power both in the Lifestyle and in Business and are Public in Their practices. Fund Major Projects Lifestyle related and Teach the Teachers with in the Lifestyle as well as assisit other Well established in ways to gain Power with in the BDSM Societies for strenth towards the Vanilla World. Assist Masters n Mistresses in Their establishments of Munchies and Dungeons and in changing the mindsets of communities that the Lifestyle is being brought into and are experianced public speakers on
such issues as the Lifestyle and what positive impact it has on the general public at large for acceptance.

This is exactly why I disagree with most labels. Even though this is what Dread believes and was taught...and she is entitled to believe what she will...I believe this definition to be the biggest load of tripe I think I have ever heard. If you took this definition to be true and accurate, anyone who declared themselves to be a Top is inexperienced. Anyone who declares themselves an Alphaslave is uberexperienced and super hardcore. I see this form of labeling as a block in communication. It encourages people to make assumptions. I would rather see two people sit down and say,

Person 1: "Hi. I like being in control. I would like a 24/7 relationship. I am sadistic and enjoy using canes, crops, singletails and blades. I have about 6 years of experience and would really like to play with you."

Person 2: "Well hi! I like having someone else in control, but don't want to give up all control over my life. I like canes and crops, but unsure about singletails..blades are a definate no. I am pretty inexperienced, maybe we could go get some coffee and talk more about how we might play together sometime."

Ohmigosh! Communication! No labels! No false expectations..no assumptions...seems to work pretty well.

Labels do have a place.. but I think there is waaaaay too much emphasis on them.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

Post #: 29

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/10/2004 8:24:44 PM

MistressDREAD

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Actually it was bestowed on Me by My Mentor Leon after I had completed My 5th year of Training under Him. There was a formal Ceramony in Our Society and I was not only given the Name but a Position with in Our Society as well.

Thorns what You were saying is all well and good and when a person sits down with sumone in a casual setting not knowing them or in a Munchie this way can work for the quickie, but there are places that cater to a different frame of
mind that is much older then the casual D/s players of today and those ways are different from the munchie type setting
I experiance in many places here in the US and way more informal then the Societies I am a member to else where where formalatites are still followed. There are roles and proticals and training that all Members go thru in order to be a part of. Here in the US it is more of a open come as you are who ever you are and Ill have a class here or there and if you want to learn this attend. This was not the case in My situation because first off Our Groups were not open to the public nor could you simply walk in and that is true even today. A position is earned for entry and You have to patiition a place and be refered by a current member and live by certain ways set in place. Any how BDSM is not the same for everyone nor are the ways the same in the US as in many other countrys either.
One more thing I want to address but dident get to copy for the quote but it was in the other list that was posted by another member where it stated that Sadists where Dominant and masocists were submisisve This is not true. Sadist and masocists can be either Dominant or submissive . JMO

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 30

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 12:20:10 AM

WayHome

Posts: 237
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD
One more thing I want to address but dident get to copy for the quote but it was in the other list that was posted by another member where it stated that Sadists where Dominant and masocists were submisisve This is not true. Sadist and masocists can be either Dominant or submissive . JMO

If you are refering to me, then that is not true. I said masochists were bottoms, not submissives. I also said sadists were tops, not dominants. It is true that sadists and masochists (like tops and bottoms) can be either dominant or submissive.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

Post #: 31

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 3:00:10 AM

jillwfsub4blkdom

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline

Thorns,
i agree with You completely. i think labels are far too over emphasized. The bottom line is communication. That way both parties know where each person is coming from and can get a good understanding of their needs.

_____________________________

"It's the moment that transcends
Our physical into a more spiritual level of understanding" - Musiq

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 32

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 3:19:19 AM

QnofH3arts

Posts: 35
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavesuzieQ

Hello everyone, this is my second post 'cause I'm trying to get rid of that vanilla label under my name...

Personally, I'm aiming for "Rocky Road"

Harm or Enhance? I am with Taggard on this one. I have no desire to make BDSM more or less attractive to "vanillas" or otherwise, especially by the use of labels. I LIKE being different, even abnormal.

Within our tiny circle of acquaintances (read "BDSM community), as well as in the "real" world, I believe that labels are important only as a cover is important to a book. Labels give you a brief glance at what you might find inside of a person. We all make assumptions based upon those labels, though, that may turn us away from someone truly interesting.

Remember the last meeting/munch/party/event you attended? Didn't you, in your mind, "label" each person you saw or talked to by their demeanor and dress? Even "nice" is a label. Labels happen... kind of like judgements... it's how we determine what works or doesn't for ourselves.

The opinion stated herein is MINE.... but I'll share if you ask Me nicely.

(in reply to slavesuzieQ)

Post #: 33

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 3:57:29 AM

MzBerlin

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

Ohmigosh! Communication! No labels! No false expectations..no assumptions...seems to work pretty well.

Labels do have a place.. but I think there is waaaaay too much emphasis on them.

~Thorns

Thorns-
BINGO!!!
*does the "I Agree Boogie" and wishes that we had more emoticons*
As Always-
Berlin

_____________________________

new pictures!! www.ropexpert.com
also- you can catch me on www.ksexradio.com every tuesday. I co-host Baadmasters' Dungeon!!

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 34

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 6:47:22 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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quote:

Remember the last meeting/munch/party/event you attended? Didn't you, in your mind, "label" each person you saw or talked to by their demeanor and dress? Even "nice" is a label. Labels happen... kind of like judgements... it's how we determine what works or doesn't for ourselves

Personally, I do not label people into any catagory... I usually find out about the person, first. I may think...*oh that person is a Man with dark hair and Hes really tall*... but and I am sure that this has been discussed elsewhere*smiles gently* that would be catergorising.. other than that I have learnt never to make an assumption on someone because of the way they look, dress, or speak to me. I always find it healthier to ask questions (Re: communication) than make a judgement which is unfounded. I was told once that to keep ones mind clear and focused and not polluted with expectations allows the spirit to be free.

But that is a personal choice.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to QnofH3arts)

Post #: 35

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 12:27:43 PM

Thanatosian

Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline

<-----playing devils advocate here

quote:

Personally, I do not label people into any catagory... <snip> but and I am sure that this has been discussed elsewhere*smiles gently* that would be catergorising.

you do not label people into any category yet you categorise them????

quote:

I may think...*oh that person is a Man with dark hair and Hes really tall*...

Man - label for his gender
dark - label for his hair tint
tall - label for his height

just wanted to point out that if someone wanted to get nit-picky enough, they could refute your argument against labels just 'happening'

_____________________________

Apply Usual Caveats Here

An expert is somone who has made all the mistakes there are to be made

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 36

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 2:07:11 PM

afmvdp

Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline

Like others have said, although the idea that a label may be "hindering" or "limiting" it also is necessary. Labels are often there for our own understanding and protection, just as something may declare itself as poisionous or toxic so that you immediately know to take warning so should it be with people. Honestly I wish there was some massive database for people in the scene to sort of go to and people could rate their experiences with particular subs, doms, etc like a movie on Amazon. It could really be interesting and perhaps shutup some of the self declared masters or doms of a neophyte and proselyte nature.

I let people know very up front exactly the type of person I am to save myself time in the weeding process. If I am to see a profile of someone who is a bi, poly, agnostic, crossdressing switch I will know that they are a very confused individual and I continue on my way. haha. If I see a gorean potential, I again know that what she is looking for is not what I offer and help direct her away. On the other hand when I find another daughter sub it is easier to talk to them about who and what I prefer than a lover sub. Is it necessary? no. You'll find out eventually otherwise. Is it helpful? yes.

(in reply to Thanatosian)

Post #: 37

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 3:10:10 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thanatosian

<-----playing devils advocate here

quote:

Personally, I do not label people into any catagory... <snip> but and I am sure that this has been discussed elsewhere*smiles gently* that would be catergorising.

you do not label people into any category yet you categorise them????

quote:

I may think...*oh that person is a Man with dark hair and Hes really tall*...

Man - label for his gender
dark - label for his hair tint
tall - label for his height

just wanted to point out that if someone wanted to get nit-picky enough, they could refute your argument against labels just 'happening'

Greetings...

I do agree if someone wished to 'nit-pick'... they could... in fact, they probably will, but one must not be distressed by such. Someone who listens as well as hears... who researches to try to understand particulars... would know that a catagory is a group or set of things, people, or actions that are classified together because of common characteristics

Man
black hair
tall

However... a label is something that is individually attached to a object to give instructions about it or identify it specifically from the olde english 'læppa' (flap of garment)(originating germanic) and the french for ribbon/fringe

One is an instant-is a class... the cannot just happen and is in the hands of the creator ie: the person themself. I feel it unwise to label something one knows nothing about and find is more respectful to ask, or at least 'taste' it first...

A Man may wear rags, but that doesnt make Him a poor man.

I thank You for Your most wonderful comment Thanatosian

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Thanatosian)

Post #: 38

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/11/2004 5:40:55 PM

stormiKnightBEAR

Posts: 306
Joined: 3/14/2004
Status: offline

~dark angel~

You are a refreshing change.

Thank YOU!!!

You hit the mark on several of your points.

Thanks for not doing the ball bashing, name calling
that some seem to think is necessary and for saying so
clearly it's ok to be who you are.

Thanks.
stormi
property of Master Bear

_____________________________

owned white silk slave of TEMJI aka Master Bear

PROUD TO BE TEXAN AND AMERICAN BY BIRTH~
GOD BLESS TEXAS AND THE U.S.A !!!!

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 39

RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? - 8/16/2004 8:04:18 PM

compes

Posts: 92
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: QnofH3arts
Remember the last meeting/munch/party/event you attended? Didn't you, in your mind, "label" each person you saw or talked to by their demeanor and dress? Even "nice" is a label. Labels happen... kind of like judgements... it's how we determine what works or doesn't for ourselves.

Uhmmm Yea, that FIRST munch I went to I attempted tp place labels on the guests as they arrived. Who is Dom, who is sub? I think everyone does at first.

But those labels were so quickly shattered that I quickly gave it up.

Now if someone interests me, I talk to them. We'll figure out what our relationship will be through our conversation.

(The huge, ruggedly handsome guy I'd pegged as a Dominant that first meeting turned out to be one of the biggest pain sluts in our group. I last saw his wife / Mistress stitch up his cock with a LOT of needles in a display that had every guy in the room walking crosslegged.)

Compes

(in reply to QnofH3arts)

Post #: 40

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