Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 5:07:14 PM)

Angel is sure people realise by now how she hates labels herself...(repeating herself again...laughs)... but it is obvious that in general, labels are needed to help in everyday life...

After reading a wonderful post by January, it got Angel thinking... as much as they are used are labels hindering BDSM (especially Ds) or helping?... Are they a nessecary evil?
If within a BDSM Sm relationship dynamic, its so much simpiler... theres a Top and theres a bottom... in that sense its the individuals themselves that make 'the rules'...

But start mentioning... Masters, Dominants, submissives, slaves, switches, Goreans, Old Guard/NewGuard... (the list goes on)... everyone has their own pre-conceived ideas what each label is. Mention the fact You are Gorean... theres a ripple of soft laughter from all corners... say you are a submissive... then be accused of not being prepared to be 'real enough' to surrender completely....claim to be Masterso-and-so, and Your accused of being up Your Own Arse... if your a slave, then 'you must have been abused once' and gawd help you if you consider yourself a switch...

I havent been on these boards very long... (compared to some) but I havent once seen anyone try and 'force' an issue down someones throat or 'force' their ideals on them... but I have seen very defensive actions and replies because people cant understand where another is coming from... because their 'label' is totally different to the others view. Should we be using labels... and ifso, why cant we learn from each other, instead of jumping up and laying out accusations? Why can we not be totally happy with just a 'top/bottom' description and leave the dotting of i's and crossing of t's to the people who matter... the ones within our personal dynamic. Desention within the Lifestyle we all love so totally because its ethics of uniqueness, only causes the 'outside' world to have the ammo to try and bring us down. Do Labels create the 'Them & Us' or do they make it easier in our own minds,on who we are?

(well, thats just IMO)
If You feel You can respond to this...please do.




NightDaughter -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 5:15:07 PM)

Lables are what ever, I'm a female and i'm bi those are two lable that are just the fact of the deal. I'm submissive, yet considermyself to be a slave, two more lables which are highly debated amongst people in general.

I frankly don't care what people in general call themselves, when it comes to who they describe themselves, save that if one is dominant then they state that fact and if one is submissive then that fact is stated and if both (a switch), well personly I think one of the other type would be more dominant over the other in preferance.

I think that lables have their place, but that since there is no hard and fast rule that its up to the person who considered themself that to be content to know that others might dissagree with that assessement.




ThorsHammer -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 5:49:43 PM)

Labels ..... so limiting!

For me, when I am lucky enough to find a lady for a relationship, we will work out between us any necessary labels or terms. Until then, I'm just me .... Donn .... retired OF (Old Fart) etc.

Donn
AKA ThorsHammer




ThornBlood -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 6:13:14 PM)

I guess I look at labels as a necesarry evil. You need them to generally classify.. The world is full of labels. Unfortunately they seem to be used to prejudice ourselves toward a certain group, either through a bad experience or ignorance. JMO of course. I tend to keep an open mind towards all, and try to view the individual rather than the group as a whole.




theroebabe -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 6:13:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

as much as they are used are labels hindering BDSM (especially Ds) or helping?... Are they a nessecary evil?

But I have seen very defensive actions and replies because people cant understand where another is coming from... because their 'label' is totally different to the others view. Should we be using labels... and ifso, why cant we learn from each other, instead of jumping up and laying out accusations? Why can we not be totally happy with just a 'top/bottom' description and leave the dotting of i's and crossing of t's to the people who matter... the ones within our personal dynamic. Desention within the Lifestyle we all love so totally because its ethics of uniqueness, only causes the 'outside' world to have the ammo to try and bring us down. Do Labels create the 'Them & Us' or do they make it easier in our own minds,on who we are?



Hi Angel,

Well it helps to start with an idea of what you are and what you are looking for, after that it seems it is a free for all. Since i have been in groups and message boards i have come to realize we will never get standard definitions of these terms. And it makes me crazy from the QA point of reference as i need a point of reference.

I think that we all started with one set of labels and defined it for ourselves, now the hard part is meeting up with someone who is complimentary to out own.

I do not think anyone would ever be able to gather a set of labels and defintions and have everyone agree to them, so some people argue of them and always will.

Roe




Estring -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 6:48:30 PM)

I think labels are necessary in understanding how another person sees themself. And if you are sub looking for a Dom/me, it is helpful in finding people who consider themselves dominant. But the labels will only take you so far. As to compatibility, you are on your own.
And in dealing with others, I don't deal with their labels, I deal with who they are.




TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 6:50:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
After reading a wonderful post by January, it got Angel thinking... as much as they are used are labels hindering BDSM (especially Ds) or helping?... Are they a nessecary evil?


I am going to take a slightly different tack in my answer. I really love labels, don't consider them evil, and think more people should have their kink tatooed on their foreheads. I doubt anyone will say anything about labels on here that hasn't been said before on countless BDSM message boards and email list.

That said, the interesting point of your question, for me at least, is in the concept of hindering or helping BDSM. What on earth do you mean by that???

Is BDSM some great cult looking for members? Is it a struggling community looking for acceptance in the world at large? How do you see anything as helping or hindering BDSM?

I suppose you could say that the 55 gallon drum Master hurt BDSM, but I don't really buy that. People who do this are really isolated little islands, no matter how much we try to huddle together for warmth. I am so much not looking for acceptance, I really just want to be left alone to practice my kink in private, or maybe amongst a few good friends. Ther is no way labels are going to effect that in the slightest.

I'd love to hear more about this idea, if you would be so kind.

Yours,
Taggard




Estring -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 6:56:54 PM)

By the way people, it's labels, not lables.




TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 7:09:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

By the way people, it's labels, not lables.


I was 1 for 3...well above the Mendoza line...*wink*

On that note, I am currently taking applications for proof readers. The pay sucks, but the benefits are just crappy.

Yours,
Taggard




SherriA -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 7:52:56 PM)

Labels are like shorthand, I think. The problem is that we all use them differently. I think it's helpful to define how *you* use the word, and make that clear to the person you're communicating with (as well as understanding how s/he uses it). Once you're both on the same page, then the labels simply serve to say the same thing with fewer words.

I don't label well, personally. I'm way too curvy to fit into little labelled boxes. And I always liked the sign one of my professors had in his office that said "Label jars, not people". Unfortunately, it's unlikely that we'll be able to avoid them completely. So, barring that, I think the best course of action is to simply define how we use the words clearly so that our meaning is understood.




MistressDREAD -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 8:21:15 PM)

quote:


Labels in BDSM:
Harm or Enhance


I beleive neither word
discribes how I feel about
*Labels as you call it. I call
it Roles and Positions that one
has either gained thru experiance
or thru position with in a Alternate
Society and the honorifics given by
such or a poistion desired to be in
or naturally fit into and includes
ones kinks and desires as well as
presents to those of Us precomputer
a status with in Our Lifestyle Societies
and even here want the respect of such
a * label as you call it. I know I earned Mine.
There were steps into partaking of BDSM
and the other Alternating Lifestyle thats been
incorperated into BDSM over the past 16 years
or so. In essance many things that are not accepted
by society have been pushed into Our Lifesyle simply
by association to those of the kink world even tho
sum folks of those alternate ways of thinking would
never partake of a BDSM situation or turn that around
and those of BDSM would never partake of any other
alternate way of living but the fact is that We all now
are a part of one great big not always wanting to share
our space family of freaks as the vanilla world looks at
us tug for Our spot of acceptance. Takeing away labels for Us
would be equal to watering down Our Lifestyles ways in order for
Society on a whole to be more accepting on the vanilla end
and I feel this is just what any group of those whom think
they are right would want of all others around them. We with
in this Lifestyle no matter what end also are totally
differing in Our experiances Our take on whats good
and bad, accepting or not and being human will always
stand up against all others for what We feel just
and right even if it is for that which is not accepted in
general anyway. Yes here We are suppose to be more
tolerant in what others enjoy with out judgement but We
all know that everyone holds biased views about sumthing
and either the differance in whats experiance or lived or the
biased attitudes of anyone will sumtimes get in the way of the
simplist of things here. Politically correct is not always right by
the way of Alternate Thinking. Takeing away labels will not help this
but only make it worse as We no longer can associate Ourselfs
with our positions and kinks, likes and dislikes and acceptance
from Our diverse groups in Alternates. Yes anything that Society
does not accept always takes joy in seeing it have turbulance
within but We all come to this way of thought because We were
allready in a state of turbulance and non acceptant when We
came to the Alternate Lifestyle and hence in walking into a place
not accustomed will always step in fists first so to speak and of
course those of Us Protective will put Up Our dukes n swords as well,
however the labels We use with in actually help Us determin what
those around Us are so that We can choose if We will interact or
not with them or have sumthing in common or move on because
We have nothing in common. A house divided falls and the vanilla
world would like to see US become a watered down confused group
of discerning folks whom enter into a Life that has had set ways but
those whom have come into it rather new want it to conform to what
they want the life to be for them with out thought to the past. I suppose
I can be called that of the Older Guarded ways in that for years We had
to hide the things We did because it was deemed a offence of law for one
and two We fought hard and long and many of Us sacrificed much to have
the lifestyle come to the place that it is today and dident do such just to see it changed for the worst and not the better or away from its roots or beginnings for all kinksters and disassociated people outside of society.
I was taught growing up that this was the chain of command so to speak in the Lifestyle by My Parents and that is what I have followed all My life in My terms of association of Labels and also taught My children as They grew up in the Lifestyle and I was told this also was what My Granparents also beleived in, and yes I come from a mulitgenerational BDSM and Poly Family and Our beliefs are that:

Top n bottoms = beginners or casual players into the partime
bedroom side of the kink usually a year or less experiance. Stays
to their self in thier play and are in essance closet players. learn by
trial and error with out any outside assistance or mentors.

Dominants n submissives = passive players also partime but into the non sexual lifestyle kinks as well as the sex in the bedroom with usually more then a year and less then five years into the Lifestyle. Will meet in a group setting of like minds for play and learning. Usually hide what they practice lifestyle wise when crossing back and forth from a vanilla side of life.

Master/Mistress n slaves = experianced players in the lifestyle whom are
commited to its ways usually full time and incorperate it into their daily lifes. Experiance most everything thats a kink and are usually in position of Teaching and passing on their learned experiance and tecniques and have been in the lifestyle from five to fifteen years and usually have their
Own munchies groups or public dungeons and mentor others in the Lifestyles ways. Are members to long established BDSM Societies and earn Thier positions of Power with in such and should be given the respect earned in Their Living of the Lifestyle. Will usually have both Dominant and submissives They are mentoring or go out across the Country and mentor from Group to Group.

Lords/Ladys alphaslaves = Hardcore Lifestylers with 15 plus years 24/7 into the lifestyle in all aspects of their life and are the Leaders in bringing
acceptance to the Lifestyle in manyways publicly and usually hold positions of Power both in the Lifestyle and in Business and are Public in Their practices. Fund Major Projects Lifestyle related and Teach the Teachers with in the Lifestyle as well as assisit other Well established in ways to gain Power with in the BDSM Societies for strenth towards the Vanilla World. Assist Masters n Mistresses in Their establishments of Munchies and Dungeons and in changing the mindsets of communities that the Lifestyle is being brought into and are experianced public speakers on
such issues as the Lifestyle and what positive impact it has on the general public at large for acceptance.

There are those whom have kinks (spanking, needles, rope ect,)
Those whom feed phycological or physical abnormalities ( Sadist, Masocist, beasties ect )
Those whom have fetishes ( foot worship, cross dressing, infantilizem ect )
Those whom are sexually diverse ( bi , tri, gay,abstanant, ect )
Those whom live alternate ways of living or roleplay ( Poly, Gor, Vamp, naturallists, wifeSwappers,cuckolds ect )
Those whom combind any amount of those above into their way of living
if not all of them and every part of the whole has sub parts and many ways they are experianced, enjoyed and learned and practiced.
It takes a whole lot of blocks to not only build a foundation to hold the swell of people whom have been introduced to these Alternate ways of Life
since the inseption of the internet and more public acceptance of such but to keep those Blocks that were allready holding up the previous and older in place foundation for those of Us whom have been a part of this Life for many more years then those whom are entering Our way of living even have in age is not a easy task. Add to it those whom have a desire to enter and then change that which has been around for a very long time as time and society as a whole does naturally and this makes for sum heated
reverberation across the boards, the Groups, the Homes and the Public on a whole. Get use to it. Us Long time Lifestylers have been fighting Our causes for a very long time and do at times take things personal as it is Our life that We have lived thru for many a year and It will not be long befor Us Old Folks will be out of the pictures and it will be the new generation fighting their younger up and commin know it all's in the same ways to keep that which they had established and also what We taught them to keep in tact of the Old ways from falling from yet another layer of bricks added to the top while keeping the wrecking ball at bay. JMO




SherriA -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 8:42:23 PM)

quote:


Top n bottoms = beginners or casual players into the partime
bedroom side of the kink usually a year or less experiance. Stays
to their self in thier play and are in essance closet players. learn by
trial and error with out any outside assistance or mentors.


Wow, I'm a newbie again! Who knew that could happen? Is it kinda like that whole born again virgin thing? But shhhhhh...don't tell anyone that I came out of the closet a decade or so ago, or that I've learned from tons of wonderful people....my damned label won't fit again. I gotta start spending more time fucking though, since I have a "bedroom kink", or they're gonna kick me outta the top/bottom society. Does masturbation count as a "bedroom kink"?

And whatever you do, don't tell anyone about the munch I've hosted for the past few years, or the variety of groups that I participate in. I don't wanna be a master/mistress, and goddess knows I'm no lady!

(This is why I figure it's important to clarify how we use the words, cuz Dread's definitions are nothing even remotely close to mine, and rather insulting, imnsho.)




MzBerlin -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 8:51:35 PM)

Angel-
I have often contemplated this subject. I would have to say that (and this is opinion) it can be both helpful and harmful to be a stickler for labels. Obviously the labels I put in my profile are helpful in identifying with pieces of me, but I refuse to believe that they encompass me or that they have hard and fast definitions. I think that the labels shouldn't matter to anyone besides the people involved in the dynamic. Obviously there are many lables I can use to identify myself. White, Female, Petite, Selectively Submissive and so on and so forth. I don't think that it encompasses my being. Let people think what they want, just don't let them assume. Communication.
It's all Circular.
As Always
Berlin




slavesuzieQ -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 9:24:49 PM)

Hello everyone, this is my second post 'cause I'm trying to get rid of that vanilla label under my name...lol Anyway... I think it's all subjective to the parties involved.. to most ( by the definitions I've seen on the net ) I would not be considered a slave, but for me, it is what I identify with, it is how I feel. The only opinion that matters to me is my Master's. In general I think we feel it's necessary to identify with others, as submissives or Dominants, hetero or homosexual, bi or switch etc. We have many labels in our lives... mother, sister, nurse, soccer mom... you get the picture. Now to get rid of that vanilla label.....




Estring -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 9:33:31 PM)

After vanilla comes orange sherbet. That's the tough one. [:D]




MistressDREAD -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 9:40:47 PM)

LOL
why I wouldent be Me if I was not insulting sumone in sum kind of
way even when I wasent trying. Remember Sherri I did say these
were the definitions that I grew up with and were what those around
Me use. I dident say you also had to use such. Thankyou for the
small amount of mental control I seemed to have invoked on you
as well. Jeee I diddent even have to ask permission and you just
fell right into instant reaction...I must be getting damn good at
humiliation if I insulted you so easily SherriA. I thought your skin a lil tuffer then that, maybe I was wrong.
Oh and by My definition if you been out of a closet for over a decade
you most definatly are not a Top nor a bottom, but still a BDSM youngin in My eyes .....JMO




slavesuzieQ -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/7/2004 10:02:06 PM)

Orange sherbet is better than vanilla.....lol




Leonidas -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/8/2004 12:17:35 AM)

Hello angel,

They do no harm (except maybe to take up a lot of bandwidth on discussion boards). They don't do much good. As you may have noticed, folks pick a label that is attractive to them for whatever reason, and then define the label so that it includes whatever it is that they like to do. You have to be careful not to think that you know anything useful about someone based on the label that they have chosen for themselves. That's about all.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas




iwillserveu -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/8/2004 7:26:32 AM)

Not having read January's post I can't say besides, it depends.

If the labels were worked out between two (or more) sane consenting adults and everyone in that group knows exactly what "spaghetti straining Mistress" is and does, so?

The problem with labels comes in a forum like this. People who do not know me think they know all about me because I say I'm an apricot. (Hey, morons, I ain't your apricot. [Who put the “Ape” in apericot anyway?[:)]])

That is why I’ll say again, there ain’t no slaves. If someone other than the person you negotiated with is a rude asshole because you call yourself a “slave” then that person is a rude asshole.




Leonidas -> RE: Labels in BDSM: Harm or Enhance? (8/8/2004 8:48:29 AM)

A rude asshole is always a rude asshole, Iwill. To be one means to violate the etiquitte of the culture in which you find yourself. Since you added "asshole" to rude, I would assume that you mean that the "asshole" in question was rude on purpose, rather than out of ignorance of custom. If what you are trying to say is that a slave (or whatever you would like to call a slave-like person, since slaves don't exist in your world) ought to think it's rude of someone other than his or her master or mistress (or again, whatever you would like to call it) to expect deference from him or her, that depends on the culture of the group.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas




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