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Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 9:14:23 AM   
aFineLine2tread


Posts: 15
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		The gov shouldn't bailo out the automakers, after all, Detroit has had plenty of time and warning to make more fuel-efficient cars. For the past ten years in Europe, all passenger vehicles have been required to get at least 40 mpg, so the technology is there, let the big three deal with it, they made their own beds after all.
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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 2:51:46 PM   
stubborngirl


Posts: 39
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline 		Gee..

Thanks for supporting all of the retirees who worked their asses off before this crap happened....

We'll make sure that they can camp out on your lawn when they all lose their homes.

By the way...What make is your truck?

(in reply to aFineLine2tread)
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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 4:10:02 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I was 100% against the 11 bail outs in 2008.

but I see how I have no voice, NONE.   So ...whatever (to the grid)

(in reply to stubborngirl)
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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 5:17:53 PM   
aFineLine2tread


Posts: 15
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		I don't own a truck, I have an economical vehicle like we should all have, and as far as the retirees go, they need to talk to their ceo's who get millions of dollars in bonuses, and be happy that they made 30$ an hour the whole time they were working, how many of us make that kinda money? Hell I'd be happy with it. Boo-hoo for Detroit

< Message edited by aFineLine2tread -- 11/29/2008 5:28:14 PM >

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 5:45:48 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aFineLine2tread

I don't own a truck, I have an economical vehicle like we should all have, and as far as the retirees go, they need to talk to their ceo's who get million dollar bonuses, and be happy that they made 30$ an hour the whole time they were working, how many of us make that kinda money? Hell I'd be happy with it. Boo-hoo for Detroit


So the retired auto workers should get fucked because you don't make as much as they did?

The automakers brought this shit on themselves mostly. You go out and hire the former CEO of home depot who ran that company into the ground and then wonder why you are not doing so well. My first thought is fuck em. They need to reorganize. They are spending way to much money. There must be a good reason they don't want those books opened. Who knows what kind of bones will come flying out. Weekend trips to Vegas. Gambling and hookers now where did these fall out of? They have to cut cost. And it needs to start at the top. You want to lead then lead. Lead by example. Sacrifice a little for the good of the company.

But then there is also the security issue. The big three helped us win WWII. By them retooling to supply our jeeps and weapons. I don't think the Japanese would have done it for us being we wanted to kill each other. And now we have a lot of foreign companies that own our roads. Even though they are wrote up as leases, 75 years seems ownership to me. Things like this will likely present a problem in the future.

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 6:41:34 PM   
Real_Trouble


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/25/2008
Status: offline 		A couple of points:

1 - While I know things are frequently called "bail outs" by the media, one should look closely at what is happening with each company in question this year.  Bear Stearns was bought out at $10 a share, down from over $100 the previous year; their employees held a huge amount of stock, and most of them took a 90% haircut on their retirement savings and net worth.  If that's a bail out, then I am for bailing out GM, Ford, and Chrysler in a similar fashion, but I'll get to that.  The equity injections in banks more recently is more of a bail out (as is what happened with Citi), but in cases like Bear, Lehman (left for dead), Merrill (forced to sell), or AIG (similar to Bear, the equity holders were almost totally wiped out as the gov't now owns 80% of the company), that kind of "bail out" is pretty brutal.

2 - The problem with the big 3, fundamentally, is that they build cars that suck.  Ignoring the cost structure issues (which are there) or the retirement and pension issues (which are there), one should look at the quality of their cars (which, on average, is not there, with a few exceptions).  The bottom line is that people don't buy their cars to the degree they used to.  Bailing out failing businesses is usually a poor idea, at least not without restructuring them dramatically.

3 - To anyone who brings up the retirees of these companies, I have this to say: as an American taxpayer, fuck off.  I have zero desire to subsidize retirees who are earning much more than social security would give them, and much more than the average retired person in this country will get from their company; if they get those kinds of benefits and it's going to come out of my tax dollars, I demand equal treatment, at a minimum.  But we can't even do that for most people.  Maybe the unions for these automakers shouldn't have shit the bed by either:

- Offering more generous terms to the American big 3 in order to reduce their cost disadvantage decades ago when it would have helped.
- Unionizing the plants of the Japanese carmakers producing in the US, where they pay workers less and enjoy a huge cost advantage as a result.

I think it's criminal that the UAW barely represents half the auto workers in the US, if that; basically, they decided to screw Detroit and ignore the other automakers, and now they are paying for their idiot strategy (anyone with half a brain who had studied industries with unions could have seen this coming, and many did and wrote about it).

I'm not for leaving the UAW workers destitute; they are among the first in line when the companies go bankrupt and their assets are sold off, and all of them should be backed up by social security.  But if we're going to pay out government money to retirees of just auto companies, especially ones that have been run extremely poorly for thirty straight years, I have an issue with that.  Yes, this mess is partially the union's fault.  They made their bed, now they can lie in it, in the same way those who owned stock in Bear, Citi, and AIG in their portfolios and retirement plans should all be (and in some cases have been) wiped out.

4 - If we are going to bail them out, it should be by letting these companies go bankrupt, then having the government nationalize them, restructure them into a single company and cut the excess assets dramatically, then send them public again.  The Scandinavian model for handling bank failures would actually be a good model for this kind of thing.

5 - If the government wants to create jobs and increase prosperity, there are more efficient ways to do this than by propping up dying and unprofitable companies making products people don't want to buy.  I suggest, strongly, that they look elsewhere (and do support Keynesian spending in that regard, such as refurbishing our infrastructure - if you wonder why we need this, ask Minneapolis about their bridge).


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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 6:47:56 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		the poster is correct tho- in that they had ample years to improve gas mileage.  the model T gets 25 mpg.  so the mileage actually has gotten worse.

specifically GM KILLED THE EV1.    I followed that live on the web.  the drivers wanted to buy the leased cars and they were not allowed to.  ugly measures were used to secure every EV unit - to the crusher - to destroy them. 

the market WANTED that car.   I personally have loaded a guiatine into my GM car, I am a few hours from Detroit. I plan to behead the big 3 CEOs.  I then will go to K-street and "look around"

fuck GM.   fuck the management.  let the japanese manage that company and keep the actual workers -working.

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 7:07:08 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		If the tax payer is now going to be on the hook with the Big 3, then I say they not only make them reorganize the business side of the companies, but also I would require that the unions be ejected and they also reoragnaize the entire employee side as well to better reflect what workers in Japanese plants get as well as other manufacturing plants.  I would also like to see Congress take a look at all the requirements that they have placed on automakers over the years and eliminate any that are uneeded and costly.
As far as the retirees go...I am sorry.  Just like with these folks who got mortgages that they should not have gotten.....Number one, I did not sign on the line for your mortgage and I did not retire from your company.  As a taxpayer, (and yes, I am a taxpayer and not someone who gets a refund check each year) it makes me sick to my stomach to think that money is being taken from me to clean up the messes of others, or to help someone who made a bad choice.  I work hard and live responsibly.  I do not buy things that I don't need or can't afford.  I have zero debt, and haven't run up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt.  When are we going to get back to the basics that say, if you make a mistake, then you bear the consequence. 


And before someone says anything...the mistake the retirees made was being too invested in their forner employer or being too heavily invested in stocks in general.  Any stock is a risk, and not a guarantee. 

< Message edited by Joenextdoor -- 11/29/2008 7:11:27 PM >

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 10:11:54 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stubborngirl

Thanks for supporting all of the retirees who worked their asses off before this crap happened....

We'll make sure that they can camp out on your lawn when they all lose their homes.




       And I owe them something because???  They built crap I have regretted owning.

     They show up on my lawn, the sprinklers will get the smart ones off, and the dogs will tend to the rest.  There is no entitlement to my help.

     

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/29/2008 11:50:53 PM   
E2Sweet


Posts: 649
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: TopLeftCornerOf, OH, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

...To anyone who brings up the retirees of these companies, I have this to say: as an American taxpayer, fuck off...


I have a very close family member who worked for one of the big three for 36 years to EARN those benefits. If it had been you who had put in those 36 years of sweat in the factory, I'm thinking you'd have a remarkably different attitude.

< Message edited by E2Sweet -- 11/29/2008 11:51:11 PM >

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 12:34:45 AM   
ArizonaSunSwitch


Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: E2Sweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

...To anyone who brings up the retirees of these companies, I have this to say: as an American taxpayer, fuck off...


I have a very close family member who worked for one of the big three for 36 years to EARN those benefits. If it had been you who had put in those 36 years of sweat in the factory, I'm thinking you'd have a remarkably different attitude.


You mean he had the *luxury* of working for the same company for 36 years at a *well* above average pay rate for whatever he did. Now *I* who has not had job security and have been payed *less* than the average detroit assembly line worker (despite requiring more initial and recurring education at *my* expense), *I'm* supposed to pay money to your family member so he can continue his insane above free market retirement benefits ? The typical unionworker greed is having it's predictable result. Unions benefit an extreme minority at the expense of the rest of the population.

Now, a previous poster complained that detroit doesn't make fuel efficient cars. Detroit *can't* make fuel efficient cars, fuel efficient cars equate with economy cars where price is a far more sensitive issue than for the person that needs a F150 for work or to maintain a family farm etc. Because of the costs involved with a spoiled current and past workforce, detroit can't produce a "Honda Civic" for anything near a Honda Civic price. And considering detroit is not at a japanese level initial quality or durability they would need to *beat* the Honda Civic price to do well in the market.

The only way the big 3 will survive is by going through bankruptcy. Once they enter they can toss the union agreements in the garbage and tell their workforce that they can have a job with a free market level pay or their company can go out of business and they can live in a factory town with no factory and no jobs. Oh, and those that retired and counted on their unsustainable benefits (by not saving a portion of their above market salary for all those years) and those in the "job bank" can go get a job like the rest of us.

If the population of this country wasn't gullible and did not believe the global warming propaganda we might of actually built refineries and oil fields in this country and this hemisphere during the past 30 years. If we had a energy policy, leaving the low end to the japanese and mainly producing higher margin vehicles would *probably* still be a valid strategy.

The foreign car makers employ as many if not more workers in the United States as the big 3 and they are not burning $118,000 dollars in cash every minute (or second, whatever it is). Why exactly should detriot be given a $50 billion dollar leg up on the competition ? Do you really think the foreign counties will see this as anything but a restraint on free trade ? Do you really think they won't consider tariffs on our goods in retaliation (or similar subsidies to their native industries) ? Tariffs were the last straw that turned a bad recession into the great depression. Do we as a country really need to be *this stupid* this time around ? Oh wait, yes we do, the dominant government funded schools teach anti-capitalist myth from pre-school to post graduate studies *instead* of history.

We the people, as a whole, are going to get the country and economy we deserve.

(in reply to E2Sweet)
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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 2:20:21 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		It's more than unions.

The B3 have contracts with thousands and thousands of dealerships--contracts they can't afford to fill (they have something like 5, 6 times the dealerships Toyota has, for example). The ability to renegotiate these contracts would help tremendously--but would mean going into receivership, and likely fucking a lot of innocent workers in the bargain.

In short, management made poor decisions.

(in reply to ArizonaSunSwitch)
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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 5:33:56 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		the other day I peaked at the pricetag on the window sticker of an SUV.   it was 70k and change.

that is more then my house cost... and more then it is now worth.

it is total bull the people need big vehicles.  many households are 1 or 2 people. MANY.  the big 3 has been in cahootz with big oil.   my cars in the 80s got better milealge then my cars in the 90s.

big oil dissed the big 3.  two congromorates fighting for money... or more to the point, each want the disks in your back.

as to pensions, I have a family member who was screwed out of a pension.   ..not to worry. we still have soc sec., and most who retire rely only on SS.  the pension doesnt cancel the SS.

as a culture we have been more dazzled by micheal jackson and jaylo, and britany,.   so this is what happens!!!!!!   

and to those who say..."so it never happens again"   HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 5:50:39 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		If you need a big vehicle PH, do what my friend did and go get a used minivan for 4k.

Different people have different spending limits, it's what used carlots are for.... and where does michael jackson come into the equation??


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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 5:56:09 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

If you need a big vehicle PH, do what my friend did and go get a used minivan for 4k.

Different people have different spending limits, it's what used carlots are for.... and where does michael jackson come into the equation??



he comes into it in that he and the mainstream news is DISTRACTION.   fluff and glitz, but nothing of substance.  news today is entertainment.  reality and fantasy are so mixed that people have a hard time knowing which is which.

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 7:16:16 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Even though they may have shot themselves in the foot, I'm about tired of hearing all this screw the big three crap. I drive a 2003 Pontiac that get's 40 MPG, what kind of foreign POS are you driving that gets so much better than that? Certainly the American automotive industry as a whole could have done better in the management department, but a lot of what has went wrong started in the 70s when a large portion of the general American public started buying the crappy cars from overseas, opening the door for them to open their own factories in the states. And don't give me that efficiency garbage, a Datsun B210 was nothing more than a skateboard with something resembling a motor that wouldn't get out of it's own way, I prefer to get where I'm going with a little bit of comfort. Detroit's problem may be partly their fault, and a large part of it the UAW, but a large portion of the burdon also falls on the American public who simply wanted cheap junk to drive between point A & point B. You reep what you sow, not buying domestic has caused a serious problem with the big 3, so now if the "don't help them" folks have their way, the only thing that will be left is vehicles financed by overseas interests. I would have preferrred the financial/housing industry been left to fall on their face, what made them so much better?
 
Hungry, out of work, try eating your foreign car I guess.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aFineLine2tread

The gov shouldn't bailo out the automakers, after all, Detroit has had plenty of time and warning to make more fuel-efficient cars. For the past ten years in Europe, all passenger vehicles have been required to get at least 40 mpg, so the technology is there, let the big three deal with it, they made their own beds after all.


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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 7:39:48 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Scooter, that is great per the 40 MPG.

With all the fog of 11 bail outs in 2008, how can anyone really measure this bail out request with anything?

if compared to the banks  the big 3 actually produce a usable asset.  Where as the banks are essentially payday loan companies and Micheal Milken ponzi scheme peddlers. 

a car is real, a ponzi scheme has no value to society.

they should have started with essential services industries 1st. 

all the while we could have had mag lev trains for goods and people that gets us from point to point at 200 mph.   one could get from my house then to Harrisburg in 15 minutes, and DC in 1 hour... NYC in 1 hour.  Instead we allow an hour to sit at an airport...or stuck in traffic where private companies charge us for the road that we paid out money to build.

I urge you to watch this 7 minute new release vid.  
LPACTV: The American System 3: The Mission Before Us

http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/11/28/lpactv-american-system-3-mission-us.html


the speecies grows from our discoveries and reaches.  the thrust of "life,liberty, and persuit of happiniess".   disintergration and unraveling of every ecomony.    .. scheduled for collapse.    what is money?   what is value?  what is progress?   what is quality of life?  what is public good?

even if we wanted to, we dont have anough cash to pay the balloon hedge fund demands.   even the money on the earth cant.



(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 7:40:56 AM   
aFineLine2tread


Posts: 15
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		Getting from point "a" to point "b" is the whole point isn't it. Americans are so spoiled for luxury that we forget what trials our forefathers suffered when they traveled. The tech is there that all vehicles could get 40 mpg or better, about time the automakers are forced to utilize it, if they really want to sell the cars. Let them go bankrupt, my next car will be a toyota, better gas mileage and they last longer.

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 8:03:10 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		When I have driven American cars in the states, they always feel wallowy and not very direct at all, most of the time it felt like I was in a boat. I know American suspension are much softer than European but the handling wasn't great on the ones I drove and the interiors look like they are made of cheaper materials than in comparable European cars. I had an aquintence who had a Chrysler here and it felt cheap and badly put together. He bought it because he was into all things Americana but from what I could tell, he should have bought German. As  for Datsun, that is ancint history, they are Nissan-Renault now, even if they just call it Nissan.

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RE: Screw the auto companies - 11/30/2008 9:01:24 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I have just one question about the retiree's. What exactly were they doing with their salary? Why didn't they invest in a retirement plan like most of us have to do? Most of us do not have pensions. We are expected to take a portion of our salary and save it. We also do not get any health benefits from our companies, beyond our retirement.

Sorry, but their piss poor planning is not my responsibility to clean up.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to aFineLine2tread)
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