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Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 1:49:45 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Here's one to divide the floor.

Somalia has rarely been a peaceful place; it was "ruled" by a bunch of warlords until 2006 who basically did whatever their little hearts desired.

In 2006, following a brief civil war the warlords were toppled by an Islamic religious army much like the Taliban. They rolled into Mogadishu and brought order - it wasnt the sort of scenario any of us might find attractive, but it was certainly much more attractive than the prior situation and the people welcomed the restoration of order under Islamic law, for all its faults perhaps, better than no order at all.

Then, the Ethiopian army invaded. Not that the Somali "Taliban" threatened Ethiopia, although Ethiopia is a country they see as the origin of all evil. Rather the US wanted the "Taliban" removed as part of the axis of evil now the Islamics were in charge.

Somalia fell into absolute chaos even worse than ever before. African Union troops are now in the country as part of a transitional plan to allow the Ethiopians to withdraw, having had enough, and a new government to take office. The AU troops are now embroiled in a conflict with multiple participants - the civilian population are being slaughtered in the streets or else starving to death at home for fear of venturing out.

Whilst Somalia has never been a peaceful place, apart from that brief period in 2006, it would appear to be more than viable as a candidate for the list of countries thrown into deep (here perhaps deeper) trouble as a result of the war on terror, joining Afghanistan and Iraq as another awful legacy of failed foreign policy by the Bush presidency.

E

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 2:23:30 PM   
tweedydaddy


Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		You see now what happened when the British dismantled a perfectly good empire.
We need to clone the remains of Lord Palmerston at once.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 2:26:31 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah.  About time the bastard paid for all the shit he started.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 2:32:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If my memory serves me it was once a colony of the UK...why is it all of a sudden Bush's legacy? It is the UK's failed policies I would think that is a legacy. Or better yet..it is the failed policies of the people of Somalia...They can't get it through their heads that civilisation has passed the tribal mentality by...They can't survive as fragmented tribes in the modern world.

They will change or parish..it is up to them not Bush or anyone else.

Butch

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 2:52:17 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		they produced a situation of order - Bush didnt like the form of that order - it was forcibly dismantled

E

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 2:55:18 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

they produced a situation of order - Bush didnt like the form of that order - it was forcibly dismantled

E


Again maybe I am wrong but I thought it was outside Islamic forces that forced themselves on the Somalia’s. We could have done that as well...what would you have said then?

Butch

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 2:57:03 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The Islamic militants forced the warlords out and imposed order according to Islamic law (this was in the OP)

We might not like that form of order, but they did (this was in the OP too)

We meddled, and the whole place turned back to shit (this was in the OP as well)

E

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 3:10:15 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

We might not like that form of order, but they did

Given that the Afghani Taliban sheltered and trained al Qaida prior to 9/11, which is the lesser evil.....pirates on the high seas or terrorists training for 9/11, the sequel?

No, we might not like the Islamic fundamentalist form of order, and no we don't like pirates on the high seas, but can you say with certainty that the piracy is not the lesser evil?

Sometimes all choices are bad ones....what do you do then?

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 3:36:05 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		So according to you order is all that's important...It makes no difference to you if an outside force takes control of a weak government and forces a religious order on the people. Hmmm and you are judging Bush's actions?


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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 3:44:23 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

they produced a situation of order - Bush didnt like the form of that order - it was forcibly dismantled

E


That depends on whether you define "a situation of order" as a benefit regardless of all other considerations.

Was the Taliban rule in Afghanistan a situation of order? 

Was Saddam's dictatorship a situation of order?
    

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 4:13:39 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

they produced a situation of order - Bush didnt like the form of that order - it was forcibly dismantled

E


This isnt quite true is it. The fundamentalists were fighting against the recognised Somalian government. Your OP seems to assume all was well until 2006, which is untrue. The Islamists only had control of the south.

Butch, Somalia was never a British Colony as such, Britain France and Italy all had a section of it. The wars between Christian Ethiopia and Muslim Somalia stretch back at least 600 years.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 4:18:56 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"We should not involve ourselves in foreign entanglements."
                                 -George Washington-

That means we shouldn't interfere but it also means we shouldn't help either.
P.E. Obama will have a full plate dealing with domestic problems for the forseeable future.
It'll be nice to see George "Herbert Hoover" Bush get on that helo for the last time!
"Mission Accomplished" George!"
As for the pirates the News says many of them are building large mansions.
Those would be very visable by satellite.
Perhaps the Saudis could use some of the many F-15s they bought from us and level those mansions at o-dark thirty some morning. "After" they get their ship back of course!
Boy, I don't think I'd want to be living in one of those mansions!
You'd be sitting out by the cee-ment pond sucking on a mint julip and a big bomb would land on your lap like that movie!
What was the name of that movie?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/3/2008 4:26:53 PM >

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 4:26:29 PM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Not for nothing Popeye,but given how small the world has become ,how modern technology has changed the nature of travel and made the desire to isolate moot...Washington's warning is more than a bit dated.We are citizens,whether we like it or not,of an ever shrinking world.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 4:33:28 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Not for nothing Popeye,but given how small the world has become ,how modern technology has changed the nature of travel and made the desire to isolate moot...Washington's warning is more than a bit dated.We are citizens,whether we like it or not,of an ever shrinking world.


Mike, lol, who told you that?
I know you're a Lefty and all that but you don't think it's still flat do you?
Ah Mike, Somalia doesn't have "modern technology."
It's a fourth world country just like Haiti.
With countries like those you air-drop in 100,000 machine guns, 50 million rounds of ammo, 100 thousand cases of Jim Beam whiskey and about 5 tones of crack cocaine and let "nature" take it's course!

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 4:57:01 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Oh Popeye whatever shall we do with you...If I didn't know better i might think your a charter member of the John Birch Society.(p.s.the world isn't flat?)

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/3/2008 6:30:40 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       LadyE, when it comes to Somalia, and Presidents, the association most Americans are going to have is of Bill Clinton abandoning soldiers of the United States to be butchered in the streets. 

      My work here is done.

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 4:38:33 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

they produced a situation of order - Bush didnt like the form of that order - it was forcibly dismantled

E


This isnt quite true is it. The fundamentalists were fighting against the recognised Somalian government. Your OP seems to assume all was well until 2006, which is untrue. The Islamists only had control of the south.

.


? My OP says that all was chaos until the Islamics rolled into town and brought order under Islamic law.

The people welcomed this restoration of order. The west didnt. The west interfered through its proxy Ethiopia and chaos was restored.

The principle here is self determination - if the people of Somalia preferred living in order under Islamic law, we have no business in interfering, whether directly or as here by proxy.

The debate is whether we truly fight for the freedom of peoples to have self determination, or whether we fight to impose our will.

Too often it is the latter

E

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 5:42:39 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Here's one to divide the floor.

Somalia has rarely been a peaceful place; it was "ruled" by a bunch of warlords until 2006 who basically did whatever their little hearts desired.

In 2006, following a brief civil war the warlords were toppled by an Islamic religious army much like the Taliban. They rolled into Mogadishu and brought order - it wasnt the sort of scenario any of us might find attractive, but it was certainly much more attractive than the prior situation and the people welcomed the restoration of order under Islamic law, for all its faults perhaps, better than no order at all.

Then, the Ethiopian army invaded. Not that the Somali "Taliban" threatened Ethiopia, although Ethiopia is a country they see as the origin of all evil. Rather the US wanted the "Taliban" removed as part of the axis of evil now the Islamics were in charge.

Somalia fell into absolute chaos even worse than ever before. African Union troops are now in the country as part of a transitional plan to allow the Ethiopians to withdraw, having had enough, and a new government to take office. The AU troops are now embroiled in a conflict with multiple participants - the civilian population are being slaughtered in the streets or else starving to death at home for fear of venturing out.

Whilst Somalia has never been a peaceful place, apart from that brief period in 2006, it would appear to be more than viable as a candidate for the list of countries thrown into deep (here perhaps deeper) trouble as a result of the war on terror, joining Afghanistan and Iraq as another awful legacy of failed foreign policy by the Bush presidency.

E


Did you enjoy your sleep during the Clinton administration?   Gimme a break...Somalia was a major embarrasment for Billy and left on the table for George Bush. 

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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 7:43:44 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Is that truly the debate? How many countries that are ruled by a harsh Islamic law have training camps for terrorist that go outside the self determined area to attack other targets? There actually has been a government, mostly in name only, but it's efforts have been undermined by the Islamic factions you speak of. Those undermining efforts have caused chaos itself, so is that chaos acceptable? These Islamic factions that have slowly gained control of the south, have been supported by money, power and fighters from outside Somalia, is that acceptable to you?

I did not believe in imposing Democracy at the point of a gun, and I do not support order from the threat of beheading either.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The principle here is self determination - if the people of Somalia preferred living in order under Islamic law, we have no business in interfering, whether directly or as here by proxy.

The debate is whether we truly fight for the freedom of peoples to have self determination, or whether we fight to impose our will.

Too often it is the latter

E


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RE: Somalia - another Bush legacy - 12/4/2008 7:53:19 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Imposing our ideas of right and wrong then; bugger what the population think?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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