Invisability of 'whiteness'

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colouredin -> Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 5:37:27 AM)
My course has forced me to look at myself anew one way is in terms of race. Now im going to leave alone the idea of social construction for a moment because this post could easily run away from me. The majority of research says that whiteness is unseen because its the dominant race and that racial identiy occurs in stages for all. It is true up until this point I havent really looked at my race as a defining feature which I am sure I would have done if i were 'black' or 'asian' or whatever. I was wondering how other white people feel about this? Do you see your 'race' as being unseen or irrelevent? Or do you see it as being highly relevent because of the advantages it affords you? Or do you have another view? It would be interesting to know, especially for my essay what people think and really amazing if anyone has any recomendations for research/statistics/theories etc.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 6:02:09 AM)
I never found being caucasion to be particularly Helpful to me - quite the opposite in fact for the Majority of my adult years. Keeping in mind that the Majority of those years were spent poverty striken, raising a severely handicapped spawn on my own, and for the most part unemployed (employers didn't want to risk me having to leave work for medical emergencies concerning the spawn, when there were candidates who either didn't have any kids or whose kids didn't have massive health problems) - I spent a lot of years in the system. The assumption was always that - since I was White (I didn't attempt to rely on my NA heritage - it doesn't much show Physically, and I'm not on the rolls) - I must simply be to Lazy to do something about getting off the system - while the assumption at the same time was that those who were of "racial minorities" of any sort who were in the same office were there because "whites" were keeping them supressed. When I was in college over the years - I've been a perpetual student since the spawn was a toddler, off and on, attempting to increase my employability - I couldn't qualify for a lot of otherwise really good scholarships and grants - because I was white. Oh no, many of those were (are) reserved for blacks, or hispanics, or asians, or those on one of the tribal rolls - I would have to make due with Pell and Student Loans which they qualified for as much as I did - no racial preferences there by gods. The assumption in achedamia is that if you're white - you'll have money from your family to go to college on, and therefore shouldn't "need" scholarships to help pay for it - but if you're "a minority" you won't have that to fall back on. There's also the assumption (due to political correctness) that that if a scholarship specifies it's for "blacks only" or "hispanics only" or "asians only" that it's all fine and dandy and we should all be collectively Pleased that it exists - but gods help ya if you ask if there are any scholarships that are for Whites only (since there are so many Other racially specific ones out there) - you're a bigot, and filled with race hatred, and must be some sort of neo-nazi skinhead who wants to force a return to slavery. People Assume that being caucasion - or even Looking caucasion - brings an automatic advantage. Such is simply not the case any longer except in very isolated areas, and in fact has become the opposite of the truth to a large extent. I could go on to say a lot more, but I would prefer to keep this on track and Not allow it to devolve into post/counterpost about biogtry and prejudice.

DomKen -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 6:07:37 AM)
I'm white and race has defined my life. I grew up in a town with a significant black population but the school district drew borders such that there were black schools and white schools. As a teenager I was witness to the inherent racism of far too many people when I and a black friend tried to get after school jobs. We went to the same places and being teenagers had effectively identical applications but I was hired after a couple of days, and was able to get other jobs when I quit or got fired, while he never worked at all during those two years. I went to college at the University of Chicago which is surrounded by a upper middle class neighborhood which is predominantly white which was bursting at the seams and had insane rent due to the competition for housing near the university. However I could look out the back window of my apartment and see across Washington Park to a exclusively black very poor neighborhood. The nearest "L" station was just across the park but was never used by students who either rode a bus to downtown or out to the interstate before getting on the train. I see the advantages inherent in my race every day when I ride the "L" to work and see whites in expensive business attire and blacks in clothing appropriate for physical labor going to work side by side. Any white person in the US who claims their race doesn't define their life is being willfully ignorant.

Aneirin -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 6:33:49 AM)
Only twice have I been turned down for a job because of my colour or ethnicity. The first was when I applied for a deck officer cadetship with Nigerian National Seaways, I got to interview stage and failed on the first hurdle, appearance. I did'nt understand this at the time, myself being only sixteen. The second was when I tried to apply for a job as an ethnic liasion officer for a local council. Despite the application saying the council is and equal opportunities employer and does not discriminate, I was turned down as they really wanted someone who was ethnic, though they did not state this in the advertisement. Then I felt the disadvantage and there questioned the equal opportunities statement, but it quickly waned as I realise ethnic people suffer far more than we do in gaining useful employment. The area in which I lived displayed this, it being a large ethnic area and was a joy to live there, the ethnic lot were always friendly and courteous, my own lot were just grumpy and miserable all the time. I never will forget the sight of two large West Indian ladies standing under a bus stop shelter in the rain, a dull grey winter's day and they were decked out in bright colours of orange, yellow and red, they were laughing and joking, truly wonderful ! Because in Britain there is a focus on helping those of ethnic minorities and 'x' amount of laws against racial slurs, I do not see any discrimination against these minorities, but I am sure it happens in places, or could it be we are so acustomed to believing in discrimination from the past, we assume it is still there? What I do see is the 'white' people very scared of being labelled racist for anything they may say or do in the prescence of an ethnic minority and the thought that an ethnic minority could if they wish call 'racism' for any thing they feel is an infringement against them. But what is scary, is groups that are not ethnic, perhaps a social equality group made up of largely 'white' people, as soon as they detect something that goes against their views, they cry racist, as if this word was all powerful and stops anyone in their tracks, which of course it does, thus stifling useful and progressive debate. These people usually have the ear of the police who enforce any of the laws, which of course looks good in the stats, stamping out racism a political sound bite. If we can't talk about our issues without being labelled a racist, honestly, how can we move forward in better understanding of each other. I think the majority of the British people just want to get along. (To note, I certainly do not support the award of employment based upon skin colour or ethnicity, this 'quota' idea, representation or whatever it is, is only of use if the applicants are correctly qualified. Everyone in this country is required to attend schooling by law, there should be no easy ride for those who fail to study.)

RCdc -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 9:04:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin My course has forced me to look at myself anew one way is in terms of race. Now im going to leave alone the idea of social construction for a moment because this post could easily run away from me. The majority of research says that whiteness is unseen because its the dominant race and that racial identiy occurs in stages for all. It is true up until this point I havent really looked at my race as a defining feature which I am sure I would have done if i were 'black' or 'asian' or whatever. I was wondering how other white people feel about this? Do you see your 'race' as being unseen or irrelevent? Or do you see it as being highly relevent because of the advantages it affords you? Or do you have another view? It would be interesting to know, especially for my essay what people think and really amazing if anyone has any recomendations for research/statistics/theories etc. I believe that the best way to look at 'whiteness' is to take off the blinkers that assume that the whiteness = race. quote: The second was when I tried to apply for a job as an ethnic liasion officer for a local council. Despite the application saying the council is and equal opportunities employer and does not discriminate, I was turned down as they really wanted someone who was ethnic, though they did not state this in the advertisement. Then I felt the disadvantage and there questioned the equal opportunities statement, but it quickly waned as I realise ethnic people suffer far more than we do in gaining useful employment. If you don't have the qualifications that a ethnic liason officer needs, I wouldn't see the point in hiring you. Not stating it in the ad simply means they were possibly looking for people with common sense to me. As far as I am concerned, my whiteness didn't matter as much as my social class. Doesn't mean it was seen less or more than being non white, just that people see the class before the colour. But then I am in the UK. the.dark.

pahunkboy -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 9:21:50 AM)
One certainly has to mind how they words things on the issue. I do think it is ironic that if we celebrate diversity that "white pride" is not allowed. I dont like hatred, but to ban it is a mute point. In the regard that whites have made the rules of much of society- that gives whites an advantage. There is an unsaid benefit in many zip codes on this. When blacks and Hispanics rumble, it suggests that we dont celebrate diversity. The numbers of the white race, for better or for worse, are declining alot. The birthrate is not high as compared to other races. Speaking as an individual, if someone gets in my face claiming to be a victim, it wears thin. On the other hand- the rich always will need the servants. once that is not possible- the elites dispose of said group. yikes.

kdsub -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 9:30:35 AM)
Whiteness means nothing now...but it will soon....as time goes by and minorities become the majority then whiteness will become a liability. So I say we whites had better enjoy our majority advantage while we can. Butch

popeye1250 -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 9:52:34 AM)
The second was when I tried to apply for a job as an ethnic liasion officer for a local council. Despite the application saying the council is and equal opportunities employer and does not discriminate, I was turned down as they really wanted someone who was ethnic, though they did not state this in the advertisement. Then I felt the disadvantage and there questioned the equal opportunities statement, but it quickly waned as I realise ethnic people suffer far more than we do in gaining useful employment. Aneirin, you should have told them you were "Irish!" "Aye ye fookers better hire me on see or yer a pack of predjudiced bastards!"

Aneirin -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 11:21:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin My course has forced me to look at myself anew one way is in terms of race. Now im going to leave alone the idea of social construction for a moment because this post could easily run away from me. The majority of research says that whiteness is unseen because its the dominant race and that racial identiy occurs in stages for all. It is true up until this point I havent really looked at my race as a defining feature which I am sure I would have done if i were 'black' or 'asian' or whatever. I was wondering how other white people feel about this? Do you see your 'race' as being unseen or irrelevent? Or do you see it as being highly relevent because of the advantages it affords you? Or do you have another view? It would be interesting to know, especially for my essay what people think and really amazing if anyone has any recomendations for research/statistics/theories etc. I believe that the best way to look at 'whiteness' is to take off the blinkers that assume that the whiteness = race. quote: The second was when I tried to apply for a job as an ethnic liasion officer for a local council. Despite the application saying the council is and equal opportunities employer and does not discriminate, I was turned down as they really wanted someone who was ethnic, though they did not state this in the advertisement. Then I felt the disadvantage and there questioned the equal opportunities statement, but it quickly waned as I realise ethnic people suffer far more than we do in gaining useful employment. If you don't have the qualifications that a ethnic liason officer needs, I wouldn't see the point in hiring you. Not stating it in the ad simply means they were possibly looking for people with common sense to me. As far as I am concerned, my whiteness didn't matter as much as my social class. Doesn't mean it was seen less or more than being non white, just that people see the class before the colour. But then I am in the UK. the.dark. Yes, so I was a mechanic, but I wanted a change of direction, this job advertisement interested me, because it said no previous experience necessary, as training will be given on the job. Twenty hours a week of work for £18000, sounded good to me, plus the fact that this post said open to all, as the council does not discriminate against race, religion or sex. The 'kind' letter I received was that the advertisement was incorrectly worded, as they were really looking for someone from an ethnic background. My reply was to say they could not word it any different when they, that is the council's policy is to not discriminate against anyone. They should have withdrawn the advertisement, reworded it and been prosecuted for discrimination. I suppose I should have told them I was a northerner. I consider myself fair minded and to me, if a rule or law exists to stop discrimination, then it is to be applied in any direction, race, colour, sex, disability or age, any discrimination based on any of that to whoever in this country, the laws should be available for all.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 11:27:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach I never found being caucasion to be particularly Helpful to me - quite the opposite in fact for the Majority of my adult years. Keeping in mind that the Majority of those years were spent poverty striken, raising a severely handicapped spawn on my own, and for the most part unemployed (employers didn't want to risk me having to leave work for medical emergencies concerning the spawn, when there were candidates who either didn't have any kids or whose kids didn't have massive health problems) - I spent a lot of years in the system. The assumption was always that - since I was White (I didn't attempt to rely on my NA heritage - it doesn't much show Physically, and I'm not on the rolls) - I must simply be to Lazy to do something about getting off the system - while the assumption at the same time was that those who were of "racial minorities" of any sort who were in the same office were there because "whites" were keeping them supressed. When I was in college over the years - I've been a perpetual student since the spawn was a toddler, off and on, attempting to increase my employability - I couldn't qualify for a lot of otherwise really good scholarships and grants - because I was white. Oh no, many of those were (are) reserved for blacks, or hispanics, or asians, or those on one of the tribal rolls - I would have to make due with Pell and Student Loans which they qualified for as much as I did - no racial preferences there by gods. The assumption in achedamia is that if you're white - you'll have money from your family to go to college on, and therefore shouldn't "need" scholarships to help pay for it - but if you're "a minority" you won't have that to fall back on. There's also the assumption (due to political correctness) that that if a scholarship specifies it's for "blacks only" or "hispanics only" or "asians only" that it's all fine and dandy and we should all be collectively Pleased that it exists - but gods help ya if you ask if there are any scholarships that are for Whites only (since there are so many Other racially specific ones out there) - you're a bigot, and filled with race hatred, and must be some sort of neo-nazi skinhead who wants to force a return to slavery. People Assume that being caucasion - or even Looking caucasion - brings an automatic advantage. Such is simply not the case any longer except in very isolated areas, and in fact has become the opposite of the truth to a large extent. I could go on to say a lot more, but I would prefer to keep this on track and Not allow it to devolve into post/counterpost about biogtry and prejudice. Other than the having a child with health problems and being in the system as an adult, (was when I was a kid, dad was hurt for a long time.), this has been my experience as well. When I brought up the other day in class how people think they can make it in the real world without speaking proper English, (I live in a predominantly urban area with a basically 50-40 white/black mix) I was immediately branded a racist. I knew I was starting a shitstorm, but so what. I also ask a kid who should be failing but isn't because he is a damn cheater why he was even in school if he didn't care about class, he replied because he didn't have to pay for anything because of his scholarship. I have never once received a scholarship, not even for acedemic achievement, because it always asks race. When I moved here from Idaho, it got even worse. Try getting a local government job that you are qualified for, its impossible. Listen to high school kids when I substituted and hear them laugh about being on welfare from having 3 babies by the time she was 17, all with different baby daddies. Hear them laugh how they are going to college with a 1.9 gpa because they'll get an "economic disadvatage, racially disadvtaged""scholarship". I am infuriated. And I think there should be a white history two months. I am sick of being blamed for keeping people down, I am not doing anything to them, and it wasn't me who did any of the bad things that happened. I know not everyone is like this, and for the most part it most minorities are decent, hardworking people, but those who are not make my blood boil. The same go for whites who blatantly take advantage of the system, and have no real reason to. So yeah Peach, I am with ya. its BS.

LaTigresse -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 11:30:27 AM)
It really never mattered to me. I grew up in small town midwestern Iowa. Almost everyone was caucasian. There was never any race issues, quite simply because there was never anything different.

NihilusZero -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 11:32:00 AM)
I've always been a bit confused about the interchangeability of skin color with ethnicity/race (exemplified here) and perhaps it's a point worth addressing in your studies? "White", "black" or even a descriptor such as "asian" isn't technically a "race"...it's a skin color. Irish, Nigerian, Peruvian, Greek...these are racial/ethnic subgroups. It would actually be interesting to see how much skin color-based racial issues overlap onto actual ethnic racial issues (do Italian-ancestry "white" folks suffer from certain problems that Scottish-ancestry "white" folks do not?).

celticlord2112 -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 11:43:23 AM)
I'm Scots, with a smidgen of Welsh and the odd Irishman somewhere in the woodpile. I'm only "white" when I haven't been in the sun.

lronitulstahp -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 11:47:55 AM)
colouredin.... Try reading "Guns, Germs, and Steel", by Jared Diamond. i think the you might actually get something more relevant from the book than some of what may spring forth from CM posters. Best of luck with your studies.

slaveluci -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 12:22:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I see the advantages inherent in my race every day when I ride the "L" to work and see whites in expensive business attire and blacks in clothing appropriate for physical labor going to work side by side. Any white person in the US who claims their race doesn't define their life is being willfully ignorant. Well, "willfully ignorant" or not, I strongly disagree. I'm white, grew up in an all-white area and saw just about everybody wearing "clothing appropriate for physical labor going to work." None of them were black, Hispanic or Asian but they were all dressed for a hard day's work. I get so tired of hearing how just because one's skin is white they have so many inherent advantages. I grew up in a poor, rural area where everyone was white and no one seemed to have any advantages, especially financial ones. White men like my Granddad and Dad worked every day in dangerous situations in coal mines and oil and gas fields and never reaped any on these assumed advantages. Yes, history has shown that in general those with white skin have had advantages over those with brown, black or yellow. However, to assert that ALL whites live with their race "defining" their "life" and wallow in all the advantages of such...well...now THAT is just "willfully ignorant." ....................luci

SilverMark -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 12:39:58 PM)
Funny thing, even though I grew up in an affluent white neighborhood I never knew a difference until it was brought to my attention. As I grew up and watched the riots, marches and protests I came to the realization that there was some kind of difference but was never sure to what degree aside from the obvious. I never reveled in my whiteness nor did I ever think that due to it, I was entitled to anything aside from the respect I gave others, no matter the color of their skin. I am sure I was afforded something in the way of an advantage but, was never convinced it was due to my race although I am sure some of it was.

theobserver -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 2:40:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach I never found being caucasion to be particularly Helpful to me - quite the opposite in fact for the Majority of my adult years. Keeping in mind that the Majority of those years were spent poverty striken, raising a severely handicapped spawn on my own, and for the most part unemployed (employers didn't want to risk me having to leave work for medical emergencies concerning the spawn, when there were candidates who either didn't have any kids or whose kids didn't have massive health problems) - I spent a lot of years in the system. The assumption was always that - since I was White (I didn't attempt to rely on my NA heritage - it doesn't much show Physically, and I'm not on the rolls) - I must simply be to Lazy to do something about getting off the system - while the assumption at the same time was that those who were of "racial minorities" of any sort who were in the same office were there because "whites" were keeping them supressed. When I was in college over the years - I've been a perpetual student since the spawn was a toddler, off and on, attempting to increase my employability - I couldn't qualify for a lot of otherwise really good scholarships and grants - because I was white. Oh no, many of those were (are) reserved for blacks, or hispanics, or asians, or those on one of the tribal rolls - I would have to make due with Pell and Student Loans which they qualified for as much as I did - no racial preferences there by gods. The assumption in achedamia is that if you're white - you'll have money from your family to go to college on, and therefore shouldn't "need" scholarships to help pay for it - but if you're "a minority" you won't have that to fall back on. There's also the assumption (due to political correctness) that that if a scholarship specifies it's for "blacks only" or "hispanics only" or "asians only" that it's all fine and dandy and we should all be collectively Pleased that it exists - but gods help ya if you ask if there are any scholarships that are for Whites only (since there are so many Other racially specific ones out there) - you're a bigot, and filled with race hatred, and must be some sort of neo-nazi skinhead who wants to force a return to slavery. People Assume that being caucasion - or even Looking caucasion - brings an automatic advantage. Such is simply not the case any longer except in very isolated areas, and in fact has become the opposite of the truth to a large extent. I could go on to say a lot more, but I would prefer to keep this on track and Not allow it to devolve into post/counterpost about biogtry and prejudice. Here we go (again) ... Listen, I will not profess to know your situation or claim that you have not experienced what you said you have, but for the love of gawd, stop with the half-truths and get informed. One of my close relatives is a nearly straight A college student. In her senior year of HS she was also a nearly straight A student and had been accepted at one of the top 10 colleges in the country, but could only attend school there for a year because her mom and stepfather could not afford to pay for her to go any longer. Guess what ... she is black ... yes black. Her folks are not rich ... they make collectively 90,000 a year. She now goes to Devry ... and she is going there because it's mainly tuition free for her - all she has to pay is the taxes. Why? because her stepfather works there. She was really heartbroken that she could not continue at a prestigious University, but now she's doing a business internship and holds two additional jobs while still attending her current college. No one is giving her a damn thing. She tried to get a lot of scholarships, her parents even paid for some kind of consultant when she was in H.S. to gather a list of scholarship programs for her. That resulted in a whopping $2000. Stop believing the hype that's filtered out there by white hate groups of the intelligentsia. There is no such thing as minority privilege. This is yet another insinuation that annoys me beyond belief. Some years back, I had a white coworker accuse me of getting a second job due to affirmative action. How absolutely WRONG she was. If Affirmative Action was in place with the company the quota had already been met tenfold, before I ever applied. I was hired based on my own merit ... and a successful conversation with the head of HR in which I made an impression on him. He pushed to get me the job and he pushed hard because the Manager didn't want to hire me ... why? BECAUSE I WAS TOO DARK. This is not something I'm making up ... it was told to me in confidence by my supervisor after I was hired. She was biracial and so was the other young woman that worked alongside me. However the other young woman was hired due to welfare to work. The Manager did not want me in the front office, because I looked BLACK. And then ... Guess what, the Manager came to me a couple weeks later and said, I was doing a great job and he was impressed. I wasn't surprised and just laughed at him inside for his bigotry. I got the job because of my qualifications, interview skills and presentation. The white woman, who did not get the position, assumed she should get the job because she was currently in college. She came into the situation with an entitled attitude and did not stand out among the other applicants when meeting the HR secretary. I DID So next time you are whining about not being treated fairly ... remember this ... I as a black woman have a mountain to climb before I'm even allowed in the door. I have to PROVE myself tenfold and beyond ... you just think you are entitled. As so starkly clear in your post. Good day.

kittinSol -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 2:59:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So I say we whites had better enjoy our majority advantage while we can. It's interesting you should say that, because there are countless examples on these boards of various posters arguing the very opposite, that is, that their being 'white' was not in any way an advantage to them and that in fact, it was quite a disadvantage.

RCdc -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 3:01:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Yes, so I was a mechanic, but I wanted a change of direction, this job advertisement interested me, because it said no previous experience necessary, as training will be given on the job. Twenty hours a week of work for £18000, sounded good to me, plus the fact that this post said open to all, as the council does not discriminate against race, religion or sex. The 'kind' letter I received was that the advertisement was incorrectly worded, as they were really looking for someone from an ethnic background. My reply was to say they could not word it any different when they, that is the council's policy is to not discriminate against anyone. They should have withdrawn the advertisement, reworded it and been prosecuted for discrimination. I suppose I should have told them I was a northerner. I consider myself fair minded and to me, if a rule or law exists to stop discrimination, then it is to be applied in any direction, race, colour, sex, disability or age, any discrimination based on any of that to whoever in this country, the laws should be available for all. I don't see how wanting someone with an ethnic background is discriminatory. It just isn't. There are plenty of white people with an ethnic background and experience. You were a mechanic at the time and yes, no experience necessary .etc.etc.etc. but you would still have to have empathic qualities for such a position and the whole post shows you don't have those qualities. You can't be good at everything and some jobs just aren't suitable for you, just as I wouldn't suit certain postions even if I wanted to try it out. I am not negating your experience, it's just really tiresome to see people keep trying to shift the blame onto discrimination for whites, when the colour isn't the issue. You are and were not ethnic - that was the issue. the.dark.

DomKen -> RE: Invisability of 'whiteness' (12/5/2008 3:28:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I see the advantages inherent in my race every day when I ride the "L" to work and see whites in expensive business attire and blacks in clothing appropriate for physical labor going to work side by side. Any white person in the US who claims their race doesn't define their life is being willfully ignorant. Well, "willfully ignorant" or not, I strongly disagree. I'm white, grew up in an all-white area and saw just about everybody wearing "clothing appropriate for physical labor going to work." None of them were black, Hispanic or Asian but they were all dressed for a hard day's work. I get so tired of hearing how just because one's skin is white they have so many inherent advantages. I grew up in a poor, rural area where everyone was white and no one seemed to have any advantages, especially financial ones. White men like my Granddad and Dad worked every day in dangerous situations in coal mines and oil and gas fields and never reaped any on these assumed advantages. Yes, history has shown that in general those with white skin have had advantages over those with brown, black or yellow. However, to assert that ALL whites live with their race "defining" their "life" and wallow in all the advantages of such...well...now THAT is just "willfully ignorant." ....................luci Disagree all you want but the facts are the facts. I ride the "L" at least twice a week during rush hour. Whites are almost exclusively in business attire and blacks are almost exclusively in attire appropriate for being doormen, security guards, janitors etc. Your father and grandfather reaped the advantage of having jobs because they were white. During the period when they worked those hard jobs blacks were relegated to share cropping and other jobs even lower down the totem pole. White people need to acknowledge these facts and work to change things because in a few decades we will be in the minority and if we haven't shown a better way it will be our turn.

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