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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I do not believe you can fix others.

Obviously people need to be their own catalysts (and there may even be exceptions to that), but...even considering the tenuous structure of it in the first place, the entirety of psychology falls into question if the above is the case. no?

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I do not believe you can fix others.

Obviously people need to be their own catalysts (and there may even be exceptions to that), but...even considering the tenuous structure of it in the first place, the entirety of psychology falls into question if the above is the case. no?

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ORIGINAL: lally3

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I do not believe you can fix others.

Obviously people need to be their own catalysts (and there may even be exceptions to that), but...even considering the tenuous structure of it in the first place, the entirety of psychology falls into question if the above is the case. no?

excellent point!

it was a psychotherapist who helped me to rid myself of my mothers hold on me.  just one clear comment that rang out and whamo - lol i cant remember what it was now, but it worked after years of screwed up anxt and endless guilt that wasnt mine to carry.

but he might have been anyone - it was that one moment of clarity from someone 'out of the box' that shone through the darkness.

in a way what stella was saying - about life making us who we are and giving us the tools to deal with things, specific to us mostly, but universally true for everyone we deal with life, we learn how to manage and we become beacons in the dark for anyone needing that specific strengh that we have learnt for ourselves.  we brush off on each other the whole time.

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I can be there with them, to unwind that vine from round the tree, snipping away portions of the vine as it is unwound, I can stand with them as that work progresses, offering assistance, I can show them whee the shovel is to take that root system out when and if the time comes, but I can not be the one to strike that blow: they must.

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ORIGINAL: lally3

so many brilliant responses! -

i dont agree though, that you cant fix people, you can and some people do need to be fixed.  they need that one person at that moment in their lives to show them by example, teach them through cause and effect that theyre behaviour is self harming and is destroying only them.  there are unfixable people and they are the ones you walk away from, but there are alot of people who just need to see the world in a different way.  you might not fix them straight away, but down the line, youre input sinks in, your influence has an impact, even if it is passive.

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

(I have to run to work so this will be incredibly short and doesn't cover the entirety of every point...but I'll come back to that later.)

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I can be there with them, to unwind that vine from round the tree, snipping away portions of the vine as it is unwound, I can stand with them as that work progresses, offering assistance, I can show them whee the shovel is to take that root system out when and if the time comes, but I can not be the one to strike that blow: they must.

It seems to me that you are speaking from a place of ethics and protocol, rather than what is actually capable. The moral risk of messing around with the wiring in someone's head  is certainly a fence as are the legal ramifications of someone in a role such as you doing the same.

Sometimes, though, the patient is an unwilling recipient to adjustments that are intiated solely at the hands of the 'mechanic'. The entire monstrous concept of repressed memory is a testament to the malleability of the human mind, even in direct contradiction to reality.

I think "fix" becomes a red herring of a term here because all we are really asking is if we can "change" someone internally (the word "fix" only being a perceived positive result from such a change).

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: lally3

so many brilliant responses! -

i dont agree though, that you cant fix people, you can and some people do need to be fixed.  they need that one person at that moment in their lives to show them by example, teach them through cause and effect that theyre behaviour is self harming and is destroying only them.  there are unfixable people and they are the ones you walk away from, but there are alot of people who just need to see the world in a different way.  you might not fix them straight away, but down the line, youre input sinks in, your influence has an impact, even if it is passive.

I don't see what you describe as fixing.  Leading by example is not fixing.

Fixing is you doing something that requires no effort by the other person to repair the internal issue of the person.  Fact is.. if a person has an issue.. they are going to be required to make an effort to correct the issue... NO one can do it for them.  We can be supportative, we can provide advice, we can lead by example, we can do much.. but all this does is show the person a solution or path to follow that may or maynot fix the issue.  It is that person's internal choice that will cause them to go through the door that will fix the issue.  I have no doubt that sometimes, if a person's isn't there to provide the solutions they might never fix the problem.. but just I provide a solution doesn't mean the person will actually do it!  If it did... then we could teach anyone anything regardless if they want to learn or not learn.  But one doesn't have to look very far and see that many individuals choose not to learn and don't do very well in school.  Teachers teach all the time... but they can't make the students learn.  Fixers fix all the time, but nothing is fixed until the fuckedup decide to fix the issue.

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ORIGINAL: lally3

davan hi,

i want to respond to this properly, but i cant right now.
by tomorrow morning my brain will be 'on' again - right now its 'off'  

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I do not believe you can fix others.

Obviously people need to be their own catalysts (and there may even be exceptions to that), but...even considering the tenuous structure of it in the first place, the entirety of psychology falls into question if the above is the case. no?

Hi, NZ----
< grin >  Of course I thought of my profession in answering that .........

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ORIGINAL: daddysliloneds

i know a select few dominants that wish to try to fix, repair, save, and/or be their submissives therapists; it's what they live for...

fortunately, not all doms feel that need; unfortunately, a lot more of them want to be the saviour, hero, white knight, then even i was aware of until recently...

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ORIGINAL: wandersalone

I was going to respond to NZ's comment but then I saw that DK had answered it so much more eloquently than I ever could.....sorry I snipped so as not to take up too much space.

In reply to the OP...I don't feel that submission is passive....I would imagine that the knowledge that the dominant has that this person  is letting them and wants them to dominate them must be a huge endorphin rush for them and that it fuels their dominance if that makes sense. 

(and finally to re-iterate what others have said.... I don't feel d/s is about fixing others and tend to feel that people who want to fix others are maybe a little misguided and possibly have delusions about their own   and I have seen this need to 'fix' others on both sides of the kneel )

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

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ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I do not believe you can fix others.

Obviously people need to be their own catalysts (and there may even be exceptions to that), but...even considering the tenuous structure of it in the first place, the entirety of psychology falls into question if the above is the case. no?

Hi, NZ----
< grin >  Of course I thought of my profession in answering that .........

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ORIGINAL: SirDominic

lally, haven't had the time to read the whole thread, so excuse if I mention ground already covered. It is a HUGE mistake to "trying to fix their problems for them" as you put it. It is an exercise in futility. Often I have found, it is also a convenient excuse to avoid fixing one's own problems. If one is too busy trying to fix others, there isn't the time to fix onself.

I speak from personal experience. Much earlier in my life (a long time ago, in a galaxy not far enough away), I had what I now call the "wounded bird" syndrome. Found I was always attracted to the ones who needed fixing. Somehow it never worked out well for me, whether I could offer some help to them or not. I had to train myself not to be attracted to these kinds of people.

Now, mostly, I won't even offer an opinion to a friend, unless it is asked for, unless I perceive the situation to be dire indeed. My motto "People have the god given right to screw themselves up as much as they want to".

Doesn't mean I won't help people grow. But it is because they want to, and they fix themselves (although they often don't realize it). I just try to help them through the rough spots. As an added benefit, I have found that helping others grow helps ME grow.

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ORIGINAL: DavanKael

]

Hi, NZ----
< grin >  Of course I thought of my profession in answering that (Though, I would happily go out of business if people didn't need my services; I love that piece of what I do and I am very good at it but I'd love to have more time to devote to my art and writing too) and here's why I answered as I did:  Let me begin by saying that a person opening themselves up to another is an immense act of trust and oft times, by the time they find their way into an office, an act with some desparation or at least substantive pain attached.  I've seen it written again and again that people in the helping professions, counseling in particular, are manifesting their submissiveness via their choice of work: for me, at least, there's nothing submissive about taking a person's most dire issues and allowing that person to place them in my hands, along with taking them in their own, and beginning a walk together: imo, I need to be dominant, I am their touch point for safety, I am their structure, their stability, their protector as we progress.  Certainly, there are acts of service there but the contemplation of those dualities and intricacies is another thread or perhaps a book.  A person comes and sits in my office (Or whatever) and we speak on their issues.  Oft times, I see not only the symptom(s) but easily track back to the root(s) of the issue.  All of that stuff, though, is a part of that person, so I can not summarily choose to tear out the root, even in those instances where that may ultimately be a good thing to do; you see, it isn't my root and vines have a way of creeping more pervasively than just that main line that you see growing up from the root system.  I can be there with them, to unwind that vine from round the tree, snipping away portions of the vine as it is unwound, I can stand with them as that work progresses, offering assistance, I can show them whee the shovel is to take that root system out when and if the time comes, but I can not be the one to strike that blow: they must.  Or perhaps they may poke around in the soil and not do anything.  I may point out that taking down the vine without taking out the root system only keeps the vine from growing for a little while but it is their choice.  It always has to be the person's choice, not mine.  People often get all sorts of astonished in sessions when I take them somewhere differently than they've visited before and they credit me with that.  My answer is: "you showed me, you gave me the information; I simply walked with you and showed you some different tools than you'd noticed before.  It is your work, you deserve the credit."  That isn't a matter of humility or self-deprecation.  I can be a prideful little wench.  It's a matter of respect, acknowledgment of effort, and consent.  It must be their choice, their effort, or they are not the orchestrators of their destiny: they are my creations and rather than showing them how to move forward in accepting their own personal responsibility, I have usurped it. 

this sentance pinged out at me.  made me think of a violent relationship i was in.  he was an inadequate shit, he had issues he would never ever own as his own and consequently pissed on just about everyone.  that was the bad greg.  the good greg was funny, generous, loving.  i know that he has dealt with it - from the day he realised id left him (long story), he turned around and he put the effort into understanding why he behaved the way he did because he wanted me back and i helped him from thousands of miles apart.  it takes a catalyst - often a massive kick in the nuts - before people wake up.

Of course, I can see how to 'fix' a person as can I see ways to 'destroy' a person.  That isn't a statement of narcissism; as some people see the inner-workings of a car, oft times, I can easily see the inner workings of a person; it's just a part of me.  Always has been.   
In personal relationships, the boundaries are different than professionally.  Am I willing to intervene with more force and a different stance personally.  Yes, I am.  Mostly, when I assist people in my personal life, they are pleased.  Sometimes, people have whined or accused at my interventions, essentially stating that they just wanted to b!tch or that they thought I went too far in trying to help with a perticular symptom or issue.  I find it difficult to stomach large amounts of b!tching without purpose but will offer an ear occasionally if a person really just wants to blowoff (Though I won't enable whining and crying and not taking action on a perpetual basis).  I do occasionally go 'too far' in my willingness or desire to help or 'fix' an issue for a friendor loved one.  I am not perfect. I would rather offer 'too much' than 'too little' but a middle path is more along the better path in those instances, most times; however, just last night, I was talking with a friend who I've helped out and who has helped me out on numerous occasions.  In my view, that person has helped me out more times than I have them, specifically in matters mechanical as I don't fix cars but that person does and has really, really saved me a lot of money and gotten me out of a number of vehicular binds across the years.  We chat occasionally.  The person's marriage is breaking up and they needed an ear.  Imo, friends give friends an ear; no question.  He asked how I am doing, and I gave him a brief run down, including some monetary challenges that have just come up.  The person immediately said, if you need help with that, just say so and I will help you.  Now, that's usually my line and I have a much harder time accepting help than I do offering it (Yes, I understand why that is and I have gotten bettere with and continue to work on it) but I took the offer in the spirit it was intended, thanked him, told him I will be okay, and was truly humbled and grateful for the generosity of the offer.  His reply, which was further humbling was that he doesn't think I understand how much I have helped him across the years by giving him an ear and by talking with him.  I replied with my assertion that he's helped me so many more times with car stuff and such.  We ultimately agreed that we've each helped each other and that is what friends do.  And that is a goodness.  We also acknowledged that most people don't seem to be willing to reach as far out to help those in their lives and that that is a sadness.  But, returning back to fixing: a helping hand is still not fixing it.  That change must, imo, come from within to have optimal meaning. 
Endogenous change is much more likely to 'stick' than exogenous change. 
Davan

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often i feel like i get all the giving given to me and i wanted to know how to redress that feeling.