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Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 3:11:06 PM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion

I admit....I'm baffled by this one. Why the rush to their own judgment?

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 3:13:41 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		Hasn't Obama said he would be shutting down Gitmo and moving all the detainees to regular correctional facilities?  Maybe they're seeing their last chance to achieve martyrdom and are making a last ditch play for it before they're spread to the four winds.

~stef


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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 3:34:18 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Hang on a second....
  • Three meals a day prepared in line with religious beliefs.
  • Free Rent
  • Access to religious services and counseling
  • Free Health Care
  • No work
  • Computer access
  • Legal access
  • Access to reading material
  • All experienced in the tropical climate of Cuba

Versus being released back to the Afghanistan mountains just in time for winter?

There's a question here?

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 3:40:38 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

There's a question here?

In at least one of the trials the death penalty is very much on the table, and as far as I can tell from what I've read, the confessions do not take the death penalty off the table.

A plea bargain I could fathom. My understanding from the article is that this is not a plea bargain.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 4:21:06 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Do you work in marketing, Merc? You're making hell sound like such a whirly gig  .

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 4:43:11 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Do you work in marketing, Merc? You're making hell sound like such a whirly gig  .
Hell? No the list documents the reality of the Gitmo detainees. I have no source for what's it is like in hell - do you?

Personally however, its still not what I have in mind under the description "whirly gig" and surprised its yours. Any cage, even in this case where I make the contrast to Afghanistan, is still a cage; however I respect your position.

However, the decision would be more difficult if death were the only alternative. In that case it would be Gitmo, Death, Afghanistan; in that order.

CL - Maybe they got wind that heaven is running out of virgins, and they want to get in line for theirs. Virgins don't grow on trees you know. 

However, they've been promised release and/or transfer from Gitmo by the PE. Maybe this is one campaign promise that the PE is not reconsidering? That's the reason I thought that an all expense paid trip to Afghanistan was soon to be added to the benefits list.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 4:44:19 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		If they are to execute these people would not their confessions have to be a matter of public record ?

"I, Ack Nagack (or whatever) comfess to this, that and the other thing, in fact to anything they say I did, I did it under the direction of............".

Remember who trained Osama ?

Notice how quickly they shut the fuck up about Saddam's trial ?

Fact is all these people have at least former ties to the US government in one form or another, and if they start talking we are going to need a brand new fan, as the last one will be drowning in shit.

T

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 5:36:25 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		How about this.

They aren't allowed to petition a US District Court until their "Military Tribunal" is over.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 6:09:13 PM   
servantheart


Posts: 960
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

Hasn't Obama said he would be shutting down Gitmo and moving all the detainees to regular correctional facilities?  Maybe they're seeing their last chance to achieve martyrdom and are making a last ditch play for it before they're spread to the four winds.

~stef



Yep.  If they are sent to regular prisons, they will likely be killed violently after becoming someone's bitch.  Hardly the way they want to be remembered by those fighting for "the cause" .  Execution, as mentioned here, gives them instant martyrdom status.  They become the heroes in their respective homelands.
 

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 6:09:21 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		If they move them to "regular" prisons they'll be eating some form of pork for every meal.
The kitchen gang will be going out of their ways to "accomodate" them I'm sure!
Plus if they're in "regular" prisons you can get to them.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:02:06 PM   
HunterS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

There's a question here?

I can tell from what I've read, the confessions do not take the death penalty off the table.


It would appear that you have not really read the article that you posted.
"He noted that the law specifies that only defendants unanimously convicted by a jury can be sentenced to death in the tribunals. No jury has been seated."

H.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:19:44 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

There's a question here?

I can tell from what I've read, the confessions do not take the death penalty off the table.


It would appear that you have not really read the article that you posted.
"He noted that the law specifies that only defendants unanimously convicted by a jury can be sentenced to death in the tribunals. No jury has been seated."

H.

It is also not certain that the confessions would eliminate the tribunal or the empaneling of a jury.

There is no plea bargain in place.  A confession does not eliminate the need for a trial per se.


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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:23:54 PM   
HunterS


Posts: 553
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Hang on a second....
  • Three meals a day prepared in line with religious beliefs.
  • Free Rent
  • Access to religious services and counseling
  • Free Health Care
  • No work
  • Computer access
  • Legal access
  • Access to reading material
  • All experienced in the tropical climate of Cuba


Versus being released back to the Afghanistan mountains just in time for winter?

There's a question here?


Would you go to prison to obtain all of the "so called" benifits you ascribe to the prisoners in question?
Why do you assume that they would all go to Afghanistan?
If Afghanistan is where they would go are you saying that prison is more desireable than "home"?
Are you suggesting that they have "unfettered" computer access?
Are you suggesting that they have "unfettered" access to reading material?  Would they have access to the personel records of their captors?  Would they have access to the architectural and engineering drawings of the prison they are in?
I have not heard of people lining up to get into the prison at Gitmo to access all of the so called benifits you have listed.
 
H.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:24:43 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Oh come on...not EVERY convict is a pig...

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

If they move them to "regular" prisons they'll be eating some form of pork for every meal.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:31:58 PM   
HunterS


Posts: 553
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

There's a question here?

I can tell from what I've read, the confessions do not take the death penalty off the table.


It would appear that you have not really read the article that you posted.
"He noted that the law specifies that only defendants unanimously convicted by a jury can be sentenced to death in the tribunals. No jury has been seated."

H.

It is also not certain that the confessions would eliminate the tribunal or the empaneling of a jury.

There is no plea bargain in place.  A confession does not eliminate the need for a trial per se.



Your post ignores both fact and logic.
 
H.

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:38:02 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

Your post ignores both fact and logic.


Hardly.  From the article:

quote:

Even if trials are held, it is unlikely any would be completed before Obama takes office on Jan. 20. Still, the U.S. military is pressing forward with the case until it receives orders to the contrary.


No jury has been empaneled, but nothing in that article suggests a juries will not be empaneled.  The confessions could become part of the evidence used to convict.


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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:39:29 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		popeye, actually they wouldn't get very much real pork as it is expensive. In most US correctional facilities the meat is turkey. They have turkey bacon and turkey sausage and turkey ground meat and turkey mystery meat we used to call it. The reason is turkey is very (comparitively) cheap to produce. You don't think they only sell turkey during the holidays do you ?

Now you know what happens to the rest of it.

T

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:40:30 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS


Would you go to prison to obtain all of the "so called" benifits you ascribe to the prisoners in question?
Why do you assume that they would all go to Afghanistan?
If Afghanistan is where they would go are you saying that prison is more desireable than "home"?
Are you suggesting that they have "unfettered" computer access?
Are you suggesting that they have "unfettered" access to reading material?  Would they have access to the personel records of their captors?  Would they have access to the architectural and engineering drawings of the prison they are in?
I have not heard of people lining up to get into the prison at Gitmo to access all of the so called benifits you have listed.
 
H.

So called? If offered to you what would you call them? Oh yeah, more than likely you view those as 'entitlements'. It's been represented that many, if not all of these fine young men either lived prior or were trained in Afghanistan. That was the reason for that assumption. However, wherever they are from they will have to replace their source of entitlements. I'll be pleased to no longer be footing the bill.

If the word "unfettered" appeared as you read my reply you have a computer virus.

It's difficult to get near enough to Gitmo to line up. However, I see many people thinking they are entitled, and lining up for the exact same benefits. I haven't polled them for their preferred location, but I'm thinking tropical Cuba would be preferred to say...Detroit.

My personal views regarding the value of those entitlements relative to my freedom; my position was given previously.  

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:45:08 PM   
HunterS


Posts: 553
Joined: 10/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Your post ignores both fact and logic.


Hardly.  From the article:

quote:

Even if trials are held, it is unlikely any would be completed before Obama takes office on Jan. 20. Still, the U.S. military is pressing forward with the case until it receives orders to the contrary.


No jury has been empaneled, but nothing in that article suggests a juries will not be empaneled.  The confessions could become part of the evidence used to convict.



If you confess to a crime why would they empanel a jury? 
They simply proceed to the penality phase.

H. 

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RE: Confessions throw Gitmo 9/11 trials into confusion - 12/8/2008 8:51:21 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

If you confess to a crime why would they empanel a jury?
They simply proceed to the penality phase.

Because a confession and pleading guilty are two different things.  Short of a guilty plea, a trial (thus, a jury) is necessary.

Also from the article:
quote:

In a letter read aloud by the judge, the defendants implied they want to plead guilty, but did not specify whether they will admit to specific charges.

Will they plead guilty to specific charges?  Or merely confess to certain acts?


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