Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (Full Version)

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Vendaval -> Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/9/2008 7:10:00 PM)

Mexican authorities believe Tijuana's Arellano Felix organization is behind a new wave of violence directed at civilians to terrorize the population of Tijuana at the U.S. border.  The question is whether the new tactics of deliberately targeting civilians changes the drug war into outright terrorism.  I think this section of the border needs reinforcements from our troops more than we need to have them in Iraq or Afghanistan.
 
"Indiscriminate drug killings sow terror in Mexico"

By Lizbeth Diaz Lizbeth Diaz – Tue Dec 9, 12:47 pm ET  
" "In fact, we don't see a clear target in any of the recent killings of this kind. We cannot rule out that these are terror-style acts," said Juan Salvador Ortiz, a deputy prosecutor for Baja California state, home to Tijuana.
 
Police and anti-drug experts believe Tijuana's Arellano Felix organization, which has been hurt by the arrests of former leaders and a turf war with other gangs, is behind the shootings as it desperately tries to hold its ground.
 
Under a nationwide clampdown on drug gangs, President Felipe Calderon has sent thousands of soldiers and federal police to Baja California since January 2007, complicating life for the Arellano Felix clan that became notorious and made a fortune in the 1990s for smuggling cocaine into California, one of the world's top drug markets.
 
Soldiers have made big drug seizures and captured more Arellano Felix leaders but have failed to stop the violence.
 
"The Tijuana turf is too valuable to lose. They are doing this to stay in the city, to show their power and ridicule the authorities," said Victor Clark, a drug trade expert at San Diego State University, of the public shootings.
 
"Empty streets make it easier for them to operate." "
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081209/wl_nm/us_mexico_drugs
 



celticlord2112 -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/9/2008 8:27:39 PM)

quote:

Mexican authorities believe Tijuana's Arellano Felix organization is behind a new wave of violence directed at civilians to terrorize the population of Tijuana at the U.S. border. The question is whether the new tactics of deliberately targeting civilians changes the drug war into outright terrorism. I think this section of the border needs reinforcements from our troops more than we need to have them in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Whether troops should be in Iraq and Afghanistan is a worthy debate.  However, using troops for drug interdiction is a waste of their skills and training.

It would make far more sense to end this ludicrous and ultimately non-existent "War on Drugs" by legalizing or decriminalizing most drugs--which would in a heartbeat eliminate the raison d'etre for the Arellano Felix clan and other drug gangs.



corysub -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 1:09:41 AM)

I agree with both posts....we probably should think about putting troops on the border, and we should probably legalize drugs.  It would make a lot more sense to me to put more of our bases on the border and transfer troops from North Carolina, New Jesey or
whereever, to bases.  It would probably be a better training ground for troopers for combat and , after the initial investment in infrastructure, would not involve more expense.  I think having a few brigades on the border conducting armed training missions would to a lot to moderate the crime wave from the cartels.
I also have done a total turn on my views on legalizing drugs.  Prohibition of anything has always benefitted criminals who traded on the needs of the population  If people want to destroy their lives with drugs they should have that freedom.  Reducing the price to pennies would close down the cartels as CL stated, and would also cut down on crimes committed by junkies to get money, particularly users turning to dealers and pushing drugs on kids.
It would be a win/win for society and after a generation or so would probably significantly reduce the number of addicts, in my view.



pahunkboy -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 6:20:38 AM)

i dont think the government is the answere to our problems.

for every problem the govt "solves" 5 more are created.

govt is too big, too powerful, too invasive.   too bloated.  there are too many lawyers.  too many stacking the deck, changing the rules in the middle of the game.

Im sure the best and the brightest of the ....arghh nevermind.



subfever -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 6:59:53 AM)

Until we can reduce the size of government by 90%, let's simply decriminalize most drugs, as CL suggested.



pahunkboy -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 7:10:11 AM)

they are legal.   you know - the other drugs.   statins, flouride, melomine, mercury,   celebrex, bextra, neurontin and lipitor.

ask you dr if they are right for you.   (pan to me skipping in the meadow happily dancing with the butterflies)



thishereboi -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 7:21:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

i dont think the government is the answere to our problems.

for every problem the govt "solves" 5 more are created.

govt is too big, too powerful, too invasive.   too bloated.  there are too many lawyers.  too many stacking the deck, changing the rules in the middle of the game.

Im sure the best and the brightest of the ....arghh nevermind.



So what do you think the answer is?



Politesub53 -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 4:20:30 PM)

So what drugs should be legalised ? And who should be allowed access to them ?  Because unless you legalise them all, and make them available to everyone who wants them, then you will still have dealers and crime.



E2Sweet -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 4:33:33 PM)

Hmm.... Is all violence amongst human beings considered terrorism now?

Seems lately the word is losing some of its pizazz due to overuse...



popeye1250 -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 4:44:54 PM)

Not surprising really.
I mean does this article really "surprise" anyone in here?
We need to stop treating Mexico as if they're our "friend." They're not.



Padriag -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 4:56:58 PM)

I'm just wondering if next we'll have Mexico errecting a wall at the border to stop all the illegal immigrants heading back to Mexico cause suddenly there aren't enough jobs for them here.  Now there'd be irony.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 5:10:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So what drugs should be legalised ? And who should be allowed access to them ?  Because unless you legalise them all, and make them available to everyone who wants them, then you will still have dealers and crime.

Yes, drugs should be legalized.

Yes, drugs should be available to everyone--sell pot alongside the normal cancer sticks, and put the cocaine next to the NoDoze tablets at WalGreens.

Prohibition was a failure for alcohol--so why would anyone think it would be different for other intoxicants?



Padriag -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 5:26:10 PM)

Ya know... honestly I could go with exactly what you suggest... provided...

1) As an employer I still have the right to refuse to employ someone who tests positive for any narcotic drug substance (course I live in a work at will state... so I can fire ya for being fugly if I want, rendering this a bit of a moot point I suppose).  Cause I'll be damned if I wanna see another crackhead staggering around while holding a demolition saw!  I kind like having my limbs attached and in original condition.  (Happened, fortunately the saw had a power cord instead of a battery pack... we still had to cold cock him to get the saw away from him... and I ended up two exam rooms down getting a tetnus shot thanks to the dirty saw blade that otherwise would have taken my arm off  mid bicep if the saw had still been plugged in.  If I'd had a gun I'd have shot the moron.)
2) Insurance companies, especially auto insurance, have a right to determine if someone is a habitual user of narcotics... and can charge them obsence rates... that way they can afford it when I sue the fuck out of someone for driving while under the influence and ramming my vehicle or running through the front of one of my stores.
3) Habitual drug users are not eligible for well-fare of any kind.... if ya can afford to get high, you can afford to pay your damn rent.
4) Renters who are habitual narcotics users who do not pay rent are subject to immediate eviction... no friggin six month eviction process while they live there rent free and tear out the walls!
and finally,
5) No whining as the drug addicts eliminate themselves from the gene pool.  Toss some lime on the corpses in the alley and call for the garbage collector.



rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 5:45:51 PM)

and how would you regulate and standardize legalized drugs? distribute them? even if they were legal, you'd still have associated crime from usage and the subsequent paranoia/high/low. I would only legalize marijuana. Hemp is illegal because it is, and we can get tonnnsss of useful things from hemp, plus it will grow pretty much anywhere. Let the tobacco companies grow and distribute weed, like cigarettes, hell even make a blended smoke. tax it, use the money for schools and libraries and such. Then station troops pulled home along the border to stop the cartels from importing coke, and meth and heroin. Force the mexican government to help end the police corruption and lawlessness, or we pull a Pershing and go looking for modern Pancho Villas, oops we crossed the border looking for Pablo the drug lord. Use the engineers attached to the units to put up the fence/wall, and while we're at it lets reform immagration policy. But thats for another post.



Padriag -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 6:00:45 PM)

I wouldn't regulate or standardize them... in fact... its buyer beware.  I mean, if you feel ya gotta have some meth in your life, you deserve what you get.  But you're right about the crime because even if we made this stuff cheap somehow as well as legalizing it... you'd still have addicts doing whatever it took for their fix.  So I'll add another one to my list...

6) Shooting or otherwise slaughtering anyone committing a crime while under the influence of narcotics will at most be a misdemeanor.

Go ahead punk...make my day.

Me... harsh.... naaaaah, what gave ya that idea. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s4.gif[/image]  BTW, if you didn't catch on my above and previous post were largely sarcasm... I don't personally believe legalizing drugs is a workable idea.  As you point out, how do you regulate them?  What about quality control?  Does this become a new industry like brewing beer?  What happens when addicts jones for drugs they still can't afford because they've wasted everything they had on their habit?  What about liability lawsuits in accidents and crimes?  What about the additional burden placed on health care (which as a system in the US is out of control already) as a result?

There is no good solution... unless you really are onboard with just taking all the dealers and addicts and shooting them.  Course then there's the cost of all the ammo.... always a catch. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s13.gif[/image]

As for Mexico... I still think we'd have been better off invading it instead of Afghanistan and Iraq... or Serbia for that matter.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 6:25:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
1) As an employer I still have the right to refuse to employ someone who tests positive for any narcotic drug substance

I see no problem with this.

I have always told people who worked for me "I don't give a damn what you do in your off time, but when you show up in the morning if you're not ready to work be ready to be fired."

Whether people are stoned, smashed, or just plain high, they should be held as responsible for their actions as if they were stone cold sober.

quote:

2) Insurance companies, especially auto insurance, have a right to determine if someone is a habitual user of narcotics... and can charge them obsence rates... that way they can afford it when I sue the fuck out of someone for driving while under the influence and ramming my vehicle or running through the front of one of my stores

Well, health insurance companies charge more to smokers, so sure, why not? 

quote:

3) Habitual drug users are not eligible for well-fare of any kind.... if ya can afford to get high, you can afford to pay your damn rent.

Personally, I'd ditch state-sponsored welfare, so this for me is a non-issue.

quote:

4) Renters who are habitual narcotics users who do not pay rent are subject to immediate eviction... no friggin six month eviction process while they live there rent free and tear out the walls!

Why just for the druggies?  There's a lot of sober deadbeats around.  No one should be allowed to live someplace rent free while an eviction process drags its heels.

quote:

5) No whining as the drug addicts eliminate themselves from the gene pool.  Toss some lime on the corpses in the alley and call for the garbage collector.

Definitely.  The gene pool could stand a little cleaning.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 6:28:53 PM)

quote:

and how would you regulate and standardize legalized drugs?

As Padraig said, caveat emptor.  If someone buys bad shit from a bad source, they die.  Moral of the story: don't shoot shit into your veins. 

Eventually, the dumb users and bad sources will eliminate themselves from the marketplace, so this is at most a transient issue.



Padriag -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 6:39:35 PM)

Heh... you ole softy you. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s4.gif[/image]

As for sober renters... okay, I'll cut some people some slack there because there are some genuine hardship cases out there... and for the record folks, I am a landlord.  Someone loses their job because the economy tanks, can't find work because the economy tanked, and is struggling to put food on the table with xmas around the corner... even I'm not that much of a bastard.  Long as they aren't tearing the walls out mind you.

Heck... I've even been known to offer a renter in a tight spot an opportunity to make some extra cash... thought that old lady was gonna break my neck she hugged me so hard!

On the other hand... they start tearing the walls out, sleeping all day instead of looking for work, making no effort... say hello to the street curb.  Personally, I say we bring back debtors prison and work camps.  Hey... there's the labor for Obama's infrastructure projects!



Vendaval -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 7:16:50 PM)

General Reply - Simply decriminalizing drugs on this side of the border is not going to eliminate the cartel wars in Mexico.  I am more concerned with minimizing the amount of violence coming into the U.S. from this latest turf war.  And the rhetorical question really is whether the targeting of civilians in this latest round of killings constitutes de facto terrorism.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Drug cartels bringing terrorism to US/Mexico border? (12/10/2008 7:21:16 PM)

quote:

Simply decriminalizing drugs on this side of the border is not going to eliminate the cartel wars in Mexico.

Sure it will.  The fact that drugs are illegal is what keeps the cartels in business in the first place.  Legalizing drugs will defang the cartels in an instant.



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