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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/12/2008 9:57:02 PM

Owner59

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The ticking time bomb exemption ,where the use of torture to save multiple lives, is a very rare (if even possible) event.

The neo-conservative tendency to expand this rarest of events, to cover all the torture done by Americans(as well as the torture we out sourced) is just one part of their plan to drag us down and make the US as despicable as the enemies we`re fighting.

Actually,these guys couldn`t care less if good intel was gathered by torturing people or not.

They just want to torture,period.All the excuses ,semantics ,banter and weasel words are just ways to justify this evil ,soviet-style behavior.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/12/2008 10:16:29 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 41

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/12/2008 10:44:45 PM

OrionTheWolf

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It seemed similar in premise, but not severity. Comparisons like this are often used in theoretical discussions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

"People can afford to be an idealist until they have a gun in their face."

I read the OP to say that it bothered him/her that the US media had not covered it, since it was similar in nature to Gitmo.

Which it really wasn't, as several people pointed out.

Apparently to no avail.

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Post #: 42

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/12/2008 10:48:40 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The ticking time bomb exemption ,where the use of torture to save multiple lives, is a very rare (if even possible) event.

Yeah I see that as a lame justification for it.

quote:

The neo-conservative tendency to expand this rarest of events, to cover all the torture done by Americans(as well as the torture we out sourced) is just one part of their plan to drag us down and make the US as despicable as the enemies we`re fighting.

So how despicable are those that we are fighting?

quote:

Actually,these guys couldn`t care less if good intel was gathered by torturing people or not.

They just want to torture,period.All the excuses ,semantics ,banter and weasel words are just ways to justify this evil ,soviet-style behavior.

Uh, so you are saying they just want to torture people for their own pleasure? Does that really seem plausable, or are you just spreading rhetoric?

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Post #: 43

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 12:36:41 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterBruce

well America dosent torture any one and for the last 7 yrs we have been safe

lt would appear that you have not read a newspaper or watched the news for the past 7 years either.

H.

(in reply to masterBruce)

Post #: 44

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 12:45:02 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

OMG... I almost got nausous when I saw those poor prisoners in Iraq being piled naked and forced to wear pantyhose, and it they didn't have to pay a dime. Do you have any idea how much that would cost in a high class dungeon in NYC???

Your post seems to indicate that you would not mind if your mother was buttfucked senseless so long as it was free.
You seem to forget that tttwd is consensual. What is going on in Gitmo is not.

H.

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 45

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 12:54:36 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I addressed everything that you said, Hunter. And then I tried to get the discussion back on to the topic that I believe was intended...

It would appear that the topic that is intended is that you are upset because a bunch of liberal,commie,pinko,bleeding heart, eurotrash are as disingenuous as those who would say that waterboarding is simply the threat of drowning and not actual torture.
If that is your point then you have made yourself quite clear...If I have mischaracterized your position please disabuse me of my ignorance.

H.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 46

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 1:56:08 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I read the OP to say that it bothered him/her that the US media had not covered it, since it was similar in nature to Gitmo.

Why would the US media make a song and a dance about run-of-the-mill police excess occurring in a country thousands of miles away? I mean, it's not news. I could have missed it, but I haven't seen anything reported in the English media.

What is being offered here? There is a conspiracy perpetrated by the US media, and by extension the US government is absolved of a guilty charge?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 47

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 3:25:47 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm sorry, but you cant at one and the same time call into question the ability of European courts to interpret EU law in connection with the prosecution and determination of a case whilst at the same time relying on interpretations of US law to refute that any offence has occurred at Guantanamo unless those interpretations have come from the US Courts - in which case I restate the question as to whether your view here relies on the notion that torture is not forbidden as it is not held to be a punishment?

I'm sorry, but you can't at one and the same time call into question the ability of the American political and legal system to interpret US law in connection with method of terrorists interrogation whilst at the same time relying on interpretations of EU law to claim that the offences that occurred in German were correctly dealt with because those interpretations have come from EU Courts.

My view here is what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If European nations can condemn the US for interpreting their own law as allowing "harsh interrogation techniques", but then make a mockery of their own laws against similar techniques ... that is hypocrisy.

Morality and practical necessity arguments aside, a major point is that regardless of what the law was in German and the EU, the practical result of the ruling was condoning the actions of the German police, with a fig leaf of propriety used to give legalistic deniability.

Whether or not you or I agree with the use of such techniques is immaterial to the actual discussion. Isn't it?

Firm

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Post #: 48

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 4:10:02 AM

Politesub53

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Firm, what happened in Germany is not the same as what is happening at Gitmo though. No doubt I will be told it is, but the fact remains that they only made threats and nothing physical took place. As for the roughing up before hand, thats common worldwide on most Saturday nights. If you want a real comparison, when UK troops were accussed of using torture in Iraq there was a massive outcry in the UK Press, which resulted in jail time for the soldier concerned.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 49

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 5:20:35 AM

LadyEllen

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FH - the European Courts examined the evidence presented against the charges and came to a decision. We may disagree with the decision, but we should be careful to allege that due process was not followed - for Germans especially, the process is as important as the evidence after all, and not just Germans would have been involved here. Saving any new evidence therefore, we can be confident that the verdict reached was accurate and the designated sanction proportionate.

To my knowledge, the Guantanamo cases have never been presented to any form of court, even though there is clear breach of law here (even if we remove the emotive notion of "torture", we may proceed with assault and making threats to kill), and sufficient evidence to gain convictions, (plural), and very much a public interest in proceeding due to the apparent institutionalisation of such crimes as acceptable and necessary within the US forces' command structure. Therefore any "interpretations" currently being relied on to hinder such proceedings, not having been made by a competent court, must be viewed as background noise; the only interpretation close to meeting the standard of a court interpretation is that of the SCOTUS member who decided that torture is not a punishment and ergo is not forbidden as cruel and unusual punishment, but even then his view is that of only one member of the SCOTUS, not the court itself.

E

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Post #: 50

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 6:09:09 AM

masterBruce

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has their been any one blowing up any thing on american soil in the last 7 yrs no their hasent and you cant prove their has been toutre

(in reply to HunterS)

Post #: 51

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 6:43:55 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Not sure what you mean by "What is being offered here?". I don't think it is a conspiracy, but just like a topic I started a few weeks back, there is a huge difference in how the US media covers things, and how the rest of the world does. What skews things I believe is just plain greed, they run stories or make them sensational based upon how many people it can attract to watch or read it.

I do not believe the US should be absolved of some of the things it has done at Gitmo and such, but after reading the story I do believe the German cops should have been hit harder by the courts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What is being offered here? There is a conspiracy perpetrated by the US media, and by extension the US government is absolved of a guilty charge?

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Post #: 52

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 6:57:06 AM

Raechard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
What's really sad here is the Bush/Cheney legacy has so twisted the views of some to the point where we have to debate whether common decency and respect for basic human rights is a point that needs to be argued.

I agree with this point above, we should not be debating things in this way.

It's a shame people think they can use one disgraceful verdict to justify another. What the German police did was wrong and they should have been prosecuted. Sometimes even the prime suspect isn't guilty of the crime and it's for no one other than a jury to decide that guilt. What the German police did was inexcusable because they acted as the jury and found him guilty even though that is not their job, their job is to gather evidence and detect crime in a dispassionate way. What separates any legal proceeding from mob rule? The only thing in my opinion is looking at the crime in a dispassionate way in terms of evidence collected. Anyone can say person A or B is 100% guilty of this and so let us torture him to prove it. Is this the standard of justice we want? What makes those German police any different to any other man on the street lynching someone because they know they are guilty?

This is dangerous territory because what people in this thread have said is we don't need proper legal trials even in domestic crime cases. People have often made the argument that torture to save a thousand lives is worth it and now they are saying torture to save one life is worth it. Ignore the fact the person in question may have confessed to a crime they didn't commit because they are perhaps mentally ill, lets torture him to find the victim. You people are making a mockery of the legal process by arguing such things are ok, we may as well do away with it and go back to sticking people’s heads on spikes.

Also people want to use legal points to decide what torture is, you mad people. If it says in a legal text that me using an electric drill on your knee caps or your skull wasn't torture, would you accept that? There is an insignificant difference between psychological torture and actual torture and in my opinion the threat of torture is psychological torture and it’s hard to tell how long lasting the effects of this will be to the person involved. The worst aspect of physical torture is the long term psychological effects of it so why are we more or less saying psychological torture is ok? I'm ashamed of the EU verdict and ashamed some would use it to trivialise their own governments misdeeds.

Water boarding isn’t drowning someone but it’s as close as you can get to it. You are still restricting the persons breathing against their will, under a cloth with water endlessly poured over it. Imagine being in that position before saying it is ok to subject someone else to it for any reason.

You could be the next person being tortured for evidence to save the life of someone, all it takes is for the police to decide you are guilty it seems and we all know the police get things wrong often.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 12/13/2008 7:08:10 AM >

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Post #: 53

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 8:30:57 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I do not believe the US should be absolved of some of the things it has done at Gitmo and such, but after reading the story I do believe the German cops should have been hit harder by the courts.

As you're a man who believes in getting his own house in order and leaving others to maintain their houses, the German case is of little value to US conduct?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 54

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 10:43:21 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
What's really sad here is the Bush/Cheney legacy has so twisted the views of some to the point where we have to debate whether common decency and respect for basic human rights is a point that needs to be argued.

I agree with this point above, we should not be debating things in this way.

Cutting off debate is rarely the answer to anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

It's a shame people think they can use one disgraceful verdict to justify another. What the German police did was wrong and they should have been prosecuted. Sometimes even the prime suspect isn't guilty of the crime and it's for no one other than a jury to decide that guilt. What the German police did was inexcusable because they acted as the jury and found him guilty even though that is not their job, their job is to gather evidence and detect crime in a dispassionate way. What separates any legal proceeding from mob rule? The only thing in my opinion is looking at the crime in a dispassionate way in terms of evidence collected. Anyone can say person A or B is 100% guilty of this and so let us torture him to prove it. Is this the standard of justice we want? What makes those German police any different to any other man on the street lynching someone because they know they are guilty?

Good paragraph. We aren't in disagreement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

This is dangerous territory because what people in this thread have said is we don't need proper legal trials even in domestic crime cases.

Could you please cite where this was said?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

People have often made the argument that torture to save a thousand lives is worth it and now they are saying torture to save one life is worth it. Ignore the fact the person in question may have confessed to a crime they didn't commit because they are perhaps mentally ill, lets torture him to find the victim. You people are making a mockery of the legal process by arguing such things are ok, we may as well do away with it and go back to sticking people’s heads on spikes.

From a logical stand point, I agree.

Which is why I find it interesting that people are excusing the European court ruling based on "it went through the legal system", but see no problem with condemning US techniques in which the legal standing of such techniques were vetted against US law. Perhaps they think (and they could even be correct) that those interpretations are incorrect, but that is not the issue in my mind. There was a process in which the law was reviewed, and strictures and legal rulings where used in order to set standards that were then followed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Also people want to use legal points to decide what torture is, you mad people. If it says in a legal text that me using an electric drill on your knee caps or your skull wasn't torture, would you accept that? There is an insignificant difference between psychological torture and actual torture and in my opinion the threat of torture is psychological torture and it’s hard to tell how long lasting the effects of this will be to the person involved. The worst aspect of physical torture is the long term psychological effects of it so why are we more or less saying psychological torture is ok? I'm ashamed of the EU verdict and ashamed some would use it to trivialise their own governments misdeeds.

I think part of the disconnect is that some of us (and perhaps even myself) are conflating legal and moral arguments.

I've not taken a moral position. I've taken a legal position.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Water boarding isn’t drowning someone but it’s as close as you can get to it. You are still restricting the persons breathing against their will, under a cloth with water endlessly poured over it. Imagine being in that position before saying it is ok to subject someone else to it for any reason.

And now we get into the conundrum of mixing the legal and moral definitions of "torture", which will never be resolved, I don't think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

You could be the next person being tortured for evidence to save the life of someone, all it takes is for the police to decide you are guilty it seems and we all know the police get things wrong often.

I feel you are correct, and one of the reasons I have difficulty in taking a definitive stand on the "harsh interrogation" or "torture" debate on moral grounds.

Firm

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Post #: 55

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 11:43:46 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I feel you are correct, and one of the reasons I have difficulty in taking a definitive stand on the "harsh interrogation" or "torture" debate on moral grounds.

Many laws are inspired by moral imperatives though (it's wrong to steal, it's wrong to maim, it's wrong to kill, ectaetera).

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Post #: 56

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 11:47:57 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

You seem to forget that tttwd is consensual. What is going on in Gitmo is not.

H.

           Isn't it, Hunter? I am of the opinion that there are certain lines out there that can be crossed, actions that negate the obligations of basic decency and human rights others have towards the perpetrator. Implied consent.

         This German didn't land in an interrogation room out of a vacuum, nor did the inhabitants of Gitmo. Their deeds amount to a signed waiver as far as I'm concerned.

         Of course torture is a bad thing, but out at the far edge, there is a gray area where I say "bring out the vise-grips, and propane torch," if that is what it takes to save innocent lives.

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Post #: 57

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 12:19:25 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I feel you are correct, and one of the reasons I have difficulty in taking a definitive stand on the "harsh interrogation" or "torture" debate on moral grounds.

Many laws are inspired by moral imperatives though (it's wrong to steal, it's wrong to maim, it's wrong to kill, ectaetera).

Agreed.

Are you saying that there is nothing wrong with basing laws on moral beliefs?

Firm

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Post #: 58

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 12:23:41 PM

kittinSol

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I don't understand your question. I am saying that most laws are based on moral beliefs and I am not judging whether this is good or bad: I am saying, however, that moral judgement should allow us to consider torture for what it is: a wrong. You said:

quote:

one of the reasons I have difficulty in taking a definitive stand on the "harsh interrogation" or "torture" debate on moral grounds.

My reply touched on the fact that there should be no difficulty in taking a moral stance on torture, since it is morally reprehensible. And indeed... against the law.

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Post #: 59

RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/13/2008 12:26:10 PM

calamitysandra

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I have not yet read through the whole thread, but I thought I would just at a bit from the German side of the issue.

When the whole mess happened, it was discussed for days in the media and in politics ,there was a consent in public opinion, that while it was understandable what was done, and while many would have done so themselves, it was nonetheless wrong.
The responsible man was admired, not only because he was willing to do what he did to try and safe the child, but more because he was also willing to face the music afterwards. He knew he was doing something wrong, felt it necessary to do it regardless, but was also willing to face down the aftermath.

So, in the end, while the motives where understandable and well understood, the actions were wrong, and the perpetrator as well as the public majority knew.

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Post #: 60

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