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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 2:42:48 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
If I remember correctly, I believe that you find religion - especially the Christian religion - less than a stellar ideal when it comes to morality, and as a source of guidance and beliefs, so I'm not sure why you'd wish to attempt to buttress your positions by citing an article based on an authors interpretation of Christian theology.


You are wrong: you should have asked, before drawing the wrong conclusion: Christianity has some fine ideas. It's just a shame that so many Christians (not all of them) choose to no apply them to their everyday lives (see: the fundamentalist Christians who keep on trying to make the rules for everybody in America today and who cry 'foul!' when others won't let them - but I don't consider them to be exemplary of their religion).

The reason why I quoted an article from a Christian site is because it struck a chord with me, regardless of its religious origins, and also because I seem to remember that you claimed to be a Christian: in this sense, I just hoped that it would help you see the light. Hopefully, it did just that.

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 6:15:56 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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That's only another way of saying they weren't so much as fined and they didn't even lose their jobs.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Yes precedents are set and followed.

No one got promotion after this. The Officer who authorised the threat of torture was taken off all criminal cases, and moved to a desk job. The officer doing the interogating was also moved. Both officers also got suspended fines.




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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 6:35:54 PM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


That's only another way of saying they weren't so much as fined and they didn't even lose their jobs.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Yes precedents are set and followed.

No one got promotion after this. The Officer who authorised the threat of torture was taken off all criminal cases, and moved to a desk job. The officer doing the interogating was also moved. Both officers also got suspended fines.





The point is they were prosecuted and punished.

To what degree is irrelevant.

There are situations everyday where criminals committing the same act are sentenced to more or less punishment based on extenuating circumstances.

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 7:36:33 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		No, they weren't punished at all, and especially not by the court.

A suspended fine isn't a fine, not by any stretch. They paid nothing, how is that supposed to be punishment. And they kept their jobs too, someone even called it a promotion. Even if they were moved around, that's the kind of thing that might happen if you're caught being overly friendly with someone who you work with... get caught doing something serious though, like stealing a pencil or some postage stamps and you're fired.

And of course it's relevant. It establishes that Europeans will indeed look the other way when it comes to some of their own seeing fit to use enhanced interrogation methods in certain types of cases. 

It shows how certain things aren't quite so black and white after all, in this great big world of ours...


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
The point is they were prosecuted and punished.

To what degree is irrelevant.

There are situations everyday where criminals committing the same act are sentenced to more or less punishment based on extenuating circumstances.


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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 7:41:26 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I must say, I'm getting a tad tired of hearing the name "Europe" used as a generic name for all of the European countries. They are individual countries. Germany is not Europe, and Europe is not Germany (I realise Daily Mail readers will disagree with this). Now, I realise that the United States have somehow managed to monopolise the term "America" as if it was their own, but come on now... Remember: one Europe... many little countries within it  .

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 8:04:11 PM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		It was the European Court of Human Rights that decided the case, kitten. If you have a problem with the name they've given themselves, I'd say your issue lies with them, and not I. 

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 8:05:42 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I stand corrected: you used the term "the Europeans" for the Court of Human Rights. Which is even worse than what riled me in the first place.  

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 8:05:49 PM   
ArticMaestro


Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
Status: offline 		Perception is an amazing thing 

"Barely one year after the judgment, Daschner was promoted to Chief of the Police Directorate for Technology, Logistics, and Management of the German state of Hesse."

How is that not a promotion?

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 8:12:33 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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I think you're just fishing for an excuse to be offended, kitten.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I stand corrected: you used the term "the Europeans" for the Court of Human Rights. Which is even worse than what riled me in the first place.  


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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 8:13:24 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Perception is indeed an amazing thing: the OP posted this thread because he perceives that the United States are given an unfair ride by the American media over torture and Guantanamo, by drawing an irrelevant parallel between institutionalised torture by the CIA and the US Army, and an isolated incident with the German police, and by complaining that said American media aren't talking about said isolated incident - in a country that rarely gives a rat's ass about the rest of the world... precisely because it's not America and doesn't bring enough media dollars. It's like postmodernism made a comeback.  



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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 8:14:43 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I think you're just fishing for an excuse to be offended, kitten.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I stand corrected: you used the term "the Europeans" for the Court of Human Rights. Which is even worse than what riled me in the first place.  



 (The person who's offended is the original creator of this thread  .)

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/14/2008 10:37:26 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		http://sim.law.uu.nl/SIM/CaseLaw/hof.nsf/e4ca7ef017f8c045c1256849004787f5/cefc9717e970fbc0c125746a00509d08?OpenDocument

...another source on this case. It is noteworthy that the evidence gleaned through the use of 'inhuman treatment' was excluded from his trial. He was convicted of his crime through other evidence.

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/15/2008 2:39:29 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

No, they weren't punished at all, and especially not by the court.

A suspended fine isn't a fine, not by any stretch. They paid nothing, how is that supposed to be punishment. And they kept their jobs too, someone even called it a promotion. Even if they were moved around, that's the kind of thing that might happen if you're caught being overly friendly with someone who you work with... get caught doing something serious though, like stealing a pencil or some postage stamps and you're fired.

And of course it's relevant. It establishes that Europeans will indeed look the other way when it comes to some of their own seeing fit to use enhanced interrogation methods in certain types of cases. 

It shows how certain things aren't quite so black and white after all, in this great big world of ours...



So presumably then, you believe the German police officers deserve greater punishment for their actions?

And logically it must follow that you believe that all of those in the US system, all the way to the White House, must face at the very least the same enhanced punishment as the German police officers?

Or, if you hold that those in the US system are guilty of no crime and therefore warrant no punishment whatever - you must also agree that the German police officers were in fact treated abysmally by the European courts and should not have so much as faced charges?

E

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/15/2008 9:14:08 PM   
rachel529


Posts: 197
Joined: 4/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

No, they weren't punished at all, and especially not by the court.

A suspended fine isn't a fine, not by any stretch. They paid nothing, how is that supposed to be punishment. And they kept their jobs too, someone even called it a promotion. Even if they were moved around, that's the kind of thing that might happen if you're caught being overly friendly with someone who you work with... get caught doing something serious though, like stealing a pencil or some postage stamps and you're fired.

And of course it's relevant. It establishes that Europeans will indeed look the other way when it comes to some of their own seeing fit to use enhanced interrogation methods in certain types of cases. 

It shows how certain things aren't quite so black and white after all, in this great big world of ours...



So presumably then, you believe the German police officers deserve greater punishment for their actions?

And logically it must follow that you believe that all of those in the US system, all the way to the White House, must face at the very least the same enhanced punishment as the German police officers?

Or, if you hold that those in the US system are guilty of no crime and therefore warrant no punishment whatever - you must also agree that the German police officers were in fact treated abysmally by the European courts and should not have so much as faced charges?

E

i like you, lady.  thats good shit there...

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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/16/2008 4:07:01 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Thanks Rachel; interesting that there doesnt seem to be any answer to those questions?

What usually happens next is that the subject is changed and the difficult questions overlooked.

E


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RE: Torture: Europe and Gitmo - 12/16/2008 7:54:01 AM   
HunterS


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Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Thanks Rachel; interesting that there doesnt seem to be any answer to those questions?

What usually happens next is that the subject is changed and the difficult questions overlooked.

E



Surely you did not expect discussion of the relevant facts. 
With some people it is all about talking points and face time.
 
H

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Profile   Post #: 116
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