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RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 6:36:26 AM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
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Interesting comments to say the least. Myself, given the option of working the same job for a union or non-union company would take the non-union hands down. That choice is based on first hand knowledge, not a flighty knee jerk reaction. I am quite capable of negotiating on my own and making the decision of whether to stay with an employer or not, if things are unfair. At the time when unions were created, yes, they were necessary and the resulting improvements in laws and regulations for the working class are a good thing. But like any other power, absolute power corrupts absolutely and that is what has happened. Union members, particularly UAW members, have lost their ability to make personal choices. It appears they don't have a say in whether to take concessions to keep their job or not, the union is driving and it's looking like they are driving toward a train wreck. No, they are not the total problem facing the economy right now, but if they are not part of the solution, they really are part of the problem and right now with their head in the sand attitude; the UAW is certainly not part of the solution.

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(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 21

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 6:37:23 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Myotherself, Just out of curiosity, how do you know your employer wouldn't have done all of that? Have you ever worked as a teacher without a union? I think many times people get so hung up on their belief the union does all of this that they really after a time have no clue what their employers would do for them in such a situation.

I am not saying they would but do you actually believe that schools nowadays would be so careless to allow a good teacher to be placed in a situation they may want to leave the school?

I am just curious what you are comparing what you have now with the union to what you had as a teacher without one.

angel

My school (and the others I have worked in) would have very little worries about pushing their staff as far as they could, in order to save money. Yes, they are careless with the health and welfare of teachers.

Before the Unions made it compulsory for teachers to have a minimum amount of time every week as non-contact time (time not spent with students or in meetings, etc), the vast majority of schools used teachers to cover lessons for teachers who were absent. All marking etc had to be done at home. It was only through the combined efforts of the main teaching unions that we have this time.

My current head teacher insisted we covered after-school detentions most nights of the week, as well as delivering after-school activity clubs. He tried to make it compulsory for teachers at my school to offer catch-up classes after school for struggling students. So we'd start teaching at 8am and finish at 3pm. Then a couple of hours of after-school stuff, then home to do a couple of hours preparation and marking. I'm sure there are people out there who work hours as long as we do, but bear in mind that we don't have the luxury of grabbing a cup of coffee or nipping to the loo when we get tired/stressed/fraught.

The stress was awful. People started taking time off sick, so we talked to the head. His suggestion - he could bring in a stress counsellor, although we'd have to visit him in our own time...

Our unions sorted out the situation, and we're beginning to get a work-life balance. Our head teacher is not unique - this happens in pretty much every school in the region (many of my friends are teachers). Head teachers are under pressure to deliver exam results and keep costs down. So for many, the easy option is to flog to death the workhorses they already have. These people aren't trained managers - they're teachers, although for many it's a lot of years since they had to actually do a full teaching workload.

If we didn't have the unions to protect us, believe me I wouldn't be a teacher. If the situation reverts to the way it was before the unions got involved, I will leave. Simple as that. As will many of my colleagues. The hours are long, the stress is enormous and the pay is shit, compared to many other jobs requiring post-graduate qualifications.

Sorry if this turned into a rant - it's nearly the end of term, this is my third weekend in a row spending 12+ hours a day marking exam papers and I'm tired...

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Post #: 22

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 6:44:41 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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My opinion of today's unions has been well expressed on the forums. Hyenas feeding on a bloated rotting carcass.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 23

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 6:47:37 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Myotherself, Just out of curiosity, how do you know your employer wouldn't have done all of that? Have you ever worked as a teacher without a union? I think many times people get so hung up on their belief the union does all of this that they really after a time have no clue what their employers would do for them in such a situation.

I am not saying they would but do you actually believe that schools nowadays would be so careless to allow a good teacher to be placed in a situation they may want to leave the school?

I am just curious what you are comparing what you have now with the union to what you had as a teacher without one.

angel

My school (and the others I have worked in) would have very little worries about pushing their staff as far as they could, in order to save money. Yes, they are careless with the health and welfare of teachers.

Before the Unions made it compulsory for teachers to have a minimum amount of time every week as non-contact time (time not spent with students or in meetings, etc), the vast majority of schools used teachers to cover lessons for teachers who were absent. All marking etc had to be done at home. It was only through the combined efforts of the main teaching unions that we have this time.

My current head teacher insisted we covered after-school detentions most nights of the week, as well as delivering after-school activity clubs. He tried to make it compulsory for teachers at my school to offer catch-up classes after school for struggling students. So we'd start teaching at 8am and finish at 3pm. Then a couple of hours of after-school stuff, then home to do a couple of hours preparation and marking. I'm sure there are people out there who work hours as long as we do, but bear in mind that we don't have the luxury of grabbing a cup of coffee or nipping to the loo when we get tired/stressed/fraught.

The stress was awful. People started taking time off sick, so we talked to the head. His suggestion - he could bring in a stress counsellor, although we'd have to visit him in our own time...

Our unions sorted out the situation, and we're beginning to get a work-life balance. Our head teacher is not unique - this happens in pretty much every school in the region (many of my friends are teachers). Head teachers are under pressure to deliver exam results and keep costs down. So for many, the easy option is to flog to death the workhorses they already have. These people aren't trained managers - they're teachers, although for many it's a lot of years since they had to actually do a full teaching workload.

If we didn't have the unions to protect us, believe me I wouldn't be a teacher. If the situation reverts to the way it was before the unions got involved, I will leave. Simple as that. As will many of my colleagues. The hours are long, the stress is enormous and the pay is shit, compared to many other jobs requiring post-graduate qualifications.

Sorry if this turned into a rant - it's nearly the end of term, this is my third weekend in a row spending 12+ hours a day marking exam papers and I'm tired...

Myotherself, let's get this party started.
I also belong to the teacher's union.
In fact, I belong to two Unions.
I belong to my local county's Union and the bigger state teacher's Union.
What fun.

One of the reason's I did not state in my OP what Union's I belong to, is now
we can both expect pages of why teachers should not have Union's.
You got the party started Myotherself, I will go along for the ride.
But I am running out in a few to buy holiday presents for the little stinkers in
my special needs classroom.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/14/2008 6:50:07 AM >

_____________________________

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 24

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 6:52:13 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

One of the reason's I did not state in my OP what Union's I belong to, is now
we can both expect pages of why teachers should not have Union's.
You got the party started Myotherself, I will go along for the ride.
But I am running out in a few to buy holiday presents for the little stinkers in
my special needs classroom.

LOL - you got that right! Still, at least WE know why we need the protection and support of a union...

And I did my buying today. I have a year 7 tutor group (homeroom, for our US cousins) and at least half of them won't be celebrating christmas at home for reasons of poverty, parental neglect, etc. So I've just been to the supermarket to buy the goodies for our little class celebration, a load of pressies for the little horrors, and prepaid phone cards for a couple of kids I'm extra concerned about...

But hey, all in a day's work for a schoolteacher!

{{hugs}}

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Post #: 25

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 7:01:27 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

One of the reason's I did not state in my OP what Union's I belong to, is now
we can both expect pages of why teachers should not have Union's.
You got the party started Myotherself, I will go along for the ride.
But I am running out in a few to buy holiday presents for the little stinkers in
my special needs classroom.

LOL - you got that right! Still, at least WE know why we need the protection and support of a union...

And I did my buying today. I have a year 7 tutor group (homeroom, for our US cousins) and at least half of them won't be celebrating christmas at home for reasons of poverty, parental neglect, etc. So I've just been to the supermarket to buy the goodies for our little class celebration, a load of pressies for the little horrors, and prepaid phone cards for a couple of kids I'm extra concerned about...

But hey, all in a day's work for a schoolteacher!

{{hugs}}

All the parent's of all my student's are struggling, except for one student.
Monthly, I buy extra food, wipes, liquid soap, bottled water, snacks, cleaners,
paper towels, bibs, etc. for all my student's.
I get extra/emergency clothes from the thrift stores.

I have one mother who is on public assistance that literally cried to me on the phone, her
daughter is in a wheelchair and she will not be getting much.
I am buying her a $100 gift card today, and I have not bought one single present for my own family.
Most teacher's go the extra mile, and I get tired of teacher blaming and bashing.
{{{{{Myotherself}}}

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/14/2008 7:03:26 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 26

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 7:29:20 AM

servantforuse

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Joined: 3/8/2006
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Lets put wages and benefits aside for a minute. While unions do at times support slugs on the job, they also protect good, hard working employees from being fired for no reason at all. You have a disagreement with your boss one morning, your'e fired. There is a level of fairness in a union shop to stop those types of abuses from happening..

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 27

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 10:00:02 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

You have a disagreement with your boss one morning, your'e fired.

Damn skippy. First rule of employment--don't piss off the boss!

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Post #: 28

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 10:12:52 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Not necessarily. On my last union job, my foreman was also my shop steward. That was pretty messed up - I felt like my union dues were just stolen wages.

More recently, two weeks ago there were some goons from a local union passing out fliers in front of the high-rise building I'm working at now. A woman I work with turned down their flier when they shoved it in her face and these so-and-so's screamed obscenities at her, which is a real class act, isn't it.

Their issue was that someone we do business with is non-union, and so they were there simply to harass us, and anyone coming into our place of business. That's okay though - I have access to the roof, and so they got sprinkled with little bits of various nastiness throughout their day...

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Lets put wages and benefits aside for a minute. While unions do at times support slugs on the job, they also protect good, hard working employees from being fired for no reason at all. You have a disagreement with your boss one morning, your'e fired. There is a level of fairness in a union shop to stop those types of abuses from happening..

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 29

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 10:21:09 AM

servantforuse

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Joined: 3/8/2006
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A foreman and a steward ??? That line would never be crossed at most companies. No way at my old company..at&t...Neither side would go there..

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 30

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 10:24:59 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

The excuse they gave was that no one else would take the steward position. And I certainly didn't want it!

HELL no.

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

A foreman and a steward ??? That line would never be crossed at most companies. No way at my old company..at&t...Neither side would go there..

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 31

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 10:29:20 AM

servantforuse

Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
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What did he do in a grievance meeting?? Change hats. What a joke. I've been around unions my whole life and have never heard of something like that..

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 32

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 10:38:51 AM

Shadowen

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/31/2007
Status: offline

I personally can't stand unions. I've dealt with far to many of them in the past and find them just as unethical and worthless as they claim the big bad management to be.

I've seen teamsters throw nails and spikes all over the roads. I've seen them slashing tires, taking blunt instruments to other parts of cars. All sanctioned by the union (even if they never would admit it and when the people get caught doing that the union turns their back s on them) The same people that their only goal seems to be anti management no matter what the company wants to do. The same people that will only back the workers if it benefits the union, if the union doesnt get a cut of something the worker gets tossed to the side.

I've seen IBEW tell their workers to purposely set electical equipment to short out and explode if anyone touches them.

I've seen my own union after our contract was up this last year put out a letter saying that the companie offer was "totally unnacceptable and they arent going to get away with it" only to have after two weeks of "meetings" the fricekn union touting the new contract (read exact same thing with no changes) as showing how hard the union fights on our behalf arent we lucky.

Hell, I'm dealing with a great possibility right now of being laid off because SAG is being fricekn greedy and wants to shut down the whole industry to get a few cents off the internet. Pricks walked out of negotiations few weeks ago and already have a damn strike date which will shut down the entire industry just after christmas. And this is after losing several billion dollars on the writers strike. Yeah great, shut down the entire industry, put people out of work when times are bad enough, knowing that the other unions have told you they arent going to support you, screw everyone over, decimate the economy of an entire area just for a few cents for people who really dont fucking need it in the first place.

Mostly from what I've seen, unions are just something you have to pay to be able to work and don't get shit out of it in return.

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 33

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 10:53:54 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

I worked for 20 years in a 'professional' job in London, without a Union. I was overworked, stressed and bullied and had very little recourse to protect myself.

My new job as a teacher means I have a Union behind me. And every day I'm grateful to have them. My job is very stressful - I work in an inner-city school with kids that would have been (and have been) excluded from many other schools. Physical and verbal assault by the students is almost a daily occurence. I knew that when I took the job on.

My Union makes sure that I get the 3 hours a week non-contact time that I'm promised, so I can do my marking and preparation and can take a breather from being solely responsible for 30+ difficult kids for hours at a stretch. They make sure that my head teacher cannot demand that I put in endless extra hours without pay or support (although I do give freely of my own time to kids that I believe will benefit from my help). They make sure that my salary is liveable, even if it isn't generous. They make sure that I'm protected from the spurious complaints from children and parents - one parent accused me of assaulting their child in the school corridor, despite clear cctv footage showing me being assaulted by their child. My Union legal team were there to protect me from malicious prosecution.

I have no idea why anyone would want to deny public sector workers Union support. Rarely do we get praised, regularly we are made scapegoats for society's ills. Without our Unions behind us, there wouldn't BE any public sector workers!

Myotherself, wow, you're a true masochist aren't you? :)
Teaching is the nobalist profession. After all, where would any of us be without teachers?
And they really are underpaid.
It's odd but all these bankers, brokers, and other miscreants in the financial systems will talk about how people are "overpaid" at $70k per year but you ask them how much they make and they don't want to talk about it.
I don't understand why someone who's making $800k a year would begrudge a working person $70k a year. It simply makes no sense.
If those people were paid by their production they'd be in the minus column!
If working people don't make enough money to buy a company's products how does that or any company expect to stay in business?
It's the "suits" who have twisted the rules of "Capitalism" to suit themselves because of greed.
It's "ok" for them to make $800k but it's "not ok" for you to make $70k?"
Why?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/14/2008 10:55:38 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 11:55:16 AM

defiantbadgirl

Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

I don't blame the unions for the coming Depression. Right now I DO blame the UAW partially for the failure of the Big 3, and their failure to obtain government aid. In hard times everyone has to be willing to sacrifice for the greater good. They were unwilling to do that. I don't have a problem with Unions as a whole. Just like I don't have a problem with ANY group or organization as a whole. I judge each one, as I judge people, on their individual actions. The UAW has acted irresponsibly in this crisis by being unwilling to make concessions and take cuts.

But why did they refuse to make concessions and take cuts? There has to be a reason. Were these cuts for everyone or just the union workers? How many concessions and how much of a cut in pay were the CEO's and other upper management going to take?

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

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(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 35

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 12:02:24 PM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Myotherself, wow, you're a true masochist aren't you? :)
Teaching is the nobalist profession. After all, where would any of us be without teachers?
And they really are underpaid.
It's odd but all these bankers, brokers, and other miscreants in the financial systems will talk about how people are "overpaid" at $70k per year but you ask them how much they make and they don't want to talk about it.

LOL - $70k? I wished! I have two degrees, a postgraduate certificate in education, nearly 20 years working in industry, but as a teacher in my third year of teaching I earn £23k. That's just less than $35k.

And yes, I'm a masochist in more ways than one...

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There's nowt so queer as folk

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Post #: 36

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 12:40:22 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Myotherself, wow, you're a true masochist aren't you? :)
Teaching is the nobalist profession. After all, where would any of us be without teachers?
And they really are underpaid.
It's odd but all these bankers, brokers, and other miscreants in the financial systems will talk about how people are "overpaid" at $70k per year but you ask them how much they make and they don't want to talk about it.

LOL - $70k? I wished! I have two degrees, a postgraduate certificate in education, nearly 20 years working in industry, but as a teacher in my third year of teaching I earn £23k. That's just less than $35k.

And yes, I'm a masochist in more ways than one...

Damn! And you have to take crap on top of it from the students?
"Homework!!!???"
"Our other teacher used to have sex with us!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 37

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 12:45:50 PM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

lol - yup, plenty of crap in this job!

But before the unions got involved and bargained with/threatened the government, I would be earning about $5k less a year than I do now...

_____________________________

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Post #: 38

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 2:46:13 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

My opinion of today's unions has been well expressed on the forums. Hyenas feeding on a bloated rotting carcass.

Yea, that pretty much sums it up for me also.

_____________________________

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Post #: 39

RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 4:23:56 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

I don't blame the unions for the coming Depression. Right now I DO blame the UAW partially for the failure of the Big 3, and their failure to obtain government aid. In hard times everyone has to be willing to sacrifice for the greater good. They were unwilling to do that. I don't have a problem with Unions as a whole. Just like I don't have a problem with ANY group or organization as a whole. I judge each one, as I judge people, on their individual actions. The UAW has acted irresponsibly in this crisis by being unwilling to make concessions and take cuts.

I listened to Ron Gettelfinger's news conference the other day on CNN. While he's not the most articulate person, he made some good points about the union being the only stakeholder to be asked for specific concessions by specific dates.

The only sacrifice I have seen being made by management was the token gesture by the CEOs to accept a one dollar salary. Very magnanimous, considering the majority of their income comes from stock options and bonuses, not their base salary.

And this came only after they received a public spanking by Congress for not bringing anything to the table, and showing their arrogance by arriving in seperate corporate jets traveling from the same place at basically the same time.

But hey, you're right, it's that greedy union that is up to no good again. I mean, after all, should we expect the CEO's to airpool? Or worse yet, fly first class on an airline, which would have saved thousands over the cost of their corporate jet? Especially when they're claiming they have no money to survive and begging for public assistance.

Without any guarantees of shared sacrifice by the companies why should the burden rest on the UAW to make concessions?

When American Airlines was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2003 there were similar arguments made about the greed of the unions. In particular, the flight attendants were castigated in the media and by anti-union factions because they refused yet another wage concession.

In the end, the pilots, mechanics, and flight attendants all accepted between 15% and 23% in wage cuts. Think about that for a second. What would you have to do to cope with a sudden loss of almost one quarter of your yearly income?

Yet within weeks of the acceptance of wage cuts by the unions it was revealed that eleven of American's top management personnel were awarded huge bonuses, including the CEO, who was later forced to resign over the controversy.

It didn't stop there though. While the workers were still laboring under their wage concession agreements, the company turned itself around and the stock nearly tripled. And of course, the bonuses to upper management kept rolling in, at the expense of those who sacrificed the most to keep the company alive.

This was from just last year:

FORT WORTH (AP) ― Angry employees confronted the CEO of American Airlines' parent Wednesday over management bonuses, underscoring troubled labor relations at the nation's biggest carrier, but shareholders rejected a union-backed resolution to let shareholders vote on executive compensation.

Union leaders said the bonuses broke a management promise to share gains as the company recovered from huge losses. But Chairman and Chief Executive Gerard Arpey declined to back down on the bonuses, which totaled about $160 million in stock for nearly 900 managers.
cbs11tv.com/local/American.Airlines.airline.2.502512.html

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/14/2008 4:40:11 PM >

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 40

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