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RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:01:20 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for starting this thread, Mz. Mia.  What you wrote below sums up the point I made in another thread on this subject.  What I am reading here shows that there are a wide range of experiences regarding unions, some pro, some con and some mixed, depending on location and circumstances.  The posters from the UK and US tend to have different points of view as do people in various regions or working for particular industries.  And it is very easy to forget the working conditions during the Industrial Revolution and the protests and rallies and union organizing to change those practices.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
Some of your points I agree with, other's I don't.
One thing I would like to say is I hope people don't think ALL Unions are the same.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:13:51 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I guess for me, if the teachers union is so great I have to ask why they make so little and people working in a factory sitting at an ergonomically correct work station, using ergonomically correct tools, making electrical parts make so much more? I know some that easily would knock off six figures. In Cedar Rapids Iowa, that was a haul no matter how you slice it.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:31:33 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I guess for me, if the teachers union is so great I have to ask why they make so little and people working in a factory sitting at an ergonomically correct work station, using ergonomically correct tools, making electrical parts make so much more? I know some that easily would knock off six figures. In Cedar Rapids Iowa, that was a haul no matter how you slice it.


The "average" teachers salary in Maryland is $50,000.
I have free life insurance, a WONDERFUL health and dental plan and
an okay pension plan, I get sick and annual leave, a sick leave bank,
disability insurance {long and short term}.
I will have 16 days off during our winter break and 2 months off this summer.
Maryland Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in MD: $54,333
I sure the hell am not complaining.
In this economy I have not heard many teachers complaining about their
salary, and we even got a 1% raise this year!
The main thing I hear "regular education" teachers complaining about are the
students, expectations and work conditions, and mainly NCLB.

Again, I have not heard anyone lately complaining about the pay.

Every day when I go to work, I thank GOD for my job, I used to complain
but lately I am not complaining that much!
I often stay after work 3-4 hours, and it is not that big a deal any more.
  

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/14/2008 5:54:54 PM >

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"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:41:36 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

....And it is very easy to forget the working conditions during the Industrial Revolution and the protests and rallies and union organizing to change those practices.
ORIGINAL: MzMia
And that has what to do with now? Blood letting was an accepted form of medicine once upon a time as well, but that time too has passed. 

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RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:50:11 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

If given the choice between a Union job and a non-Union job {For the same job, of course}, I would pick the Union job.

That's your preference.

A Union would only hinder me and hold me back.  I don't need some damned parasite sucking up my hard-earned cash to get me things I can get quite easily on my own.

I have never seen a union that didn't exist to protect the mediocre, the inept, the incompetent--in other words, the very people who are least deserving of protection.


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RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:54:30 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

....And it is very easy to forget the working conditions during the Industrial Revolution and the protests and rallies and union organizing to change those practices.
ORIGINAL: MzMia
And that has what to do with now? Blood letting was an accepted form of medicine once upon a time as well, but that time too has passed. 


What it has to do with now is that we will very easily revert back to those conditions, unless you believe basic human nature has undergone a miraculous enlightenment since then.

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RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:56:13 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

What it has to do with now is that we will very easily revert back to those conditions, unless you believe basic human nature has undergone a miraculous enlightenment since then.

Alas, it hasn't.  That's why folk still believe unions actually do any good.


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:56:56 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I have never seen a union that didn't exist to protect the mediocre, the inept, the incompetent--in other words, the very people who are least deserving of protection.



There is no system out there that doesn't protect these very people - union or no-union.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:58:02 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

....And it is very easy to forget the working conditions during the Industrial Revolution and the protests and rallies and union organizing to change those practices.
ORIGINAL: MzMia
And that has what to do with now? Blood letting was an accepted form of medicine once upon a time as well, but that time too has passed. 


What it has to do with now is that we will very easily revert back to those conditions, unless you believe basic human nature has undergone a miraculous enlightenment since then.


lol, the teachers will not be reverting.
Some people will be reverting, and when you study the labor conditions at
the turn of the last century, it is frightening.
I think many adults need some "adult education", they might start with
Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle", as HK suggested.
Upton Sinlcair was born in Maryland, by the way.
 Power to the people!
The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. Search, Read, Study, Discuss.

This is a link for high school student's, many adults might learn from this one,
please at least glance at it !
Don't be ignorant and let the um's know so much more than you!

IF you are really ignorant about the labor movement, and the conditions many
worked in 100 years ago, please,please, please read about the labor conditions
and labor movements, the link below is the best I have found so far!!!

A Curriculum of United States Labor History for Teachers.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/14/2008 6:10:56 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 5:59:52 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Because when American jobs are sent to other countries the same problems continue, unsafe and unsanitary working conditions, forced labor of unmentionables, pregnant women forced to work through the 3rd term, etc.  Remember what happened in Bhopal, India in 1984?

"What happened on December 23, 1984, was what had to be the world's worst industrial disaster - often referred to as the Three Mile Island of the chemical industry. A result of technological, industrial, legal and human error, the incident took the loves of 2,500 people, and injured about 400,000, with the toll still rising to this day.

A leak of the toxic MIC occurred that night when it reacted with a sizable volume of water that had made its way into the MIC storage tanks. Action by the staff and supervisors was too late to contain the leak, and forty tons of MIC flowed out of the tanks over two hours. And even if they had reacted immediately, the safety standards accepted at the plant would not have allowed them to do anything about it. Thus the methyl isocyanate gas escaped into the air and drifted eight kilometers downwind over the city of Bhopal, population 900,000, poisoning all in its path. The most seriously effected areas were those nearest the plant, the absolutely poorest sector of the population."

http://www.umich.edu/~snre492/lopatin.html 
 

Or how about the maquiladoras along the U.S. - Mexico border?
 
Working Conditions
 
The 948,658 Mexicans that work in the maquiladoras must endure a terrible working environment that includes inadequate training, exposure to many potentially hazardous materials, and inadequate information and protective equipment (Sawicki, 98). In a recent survey by the Comite de Apoyo Fronterizo Obrero Regional, 177 workers from 77 maquiladoras in Tijuana and Tecante, Mexico described their work experiences.
 
          One-fifth of the workers surveyed reported illnesses believed to be caused by working conditions.
 
         53% of the workers interviewed claimed not to have received any written information from their employers that explained the hazards of some of the materials used on the job.
 
         40% never received any training sponsored by their employer that went over hazards and different safety precautions.
 
       40% of the maquiladoras represented in the survey did not have a joint management-worker health and safety commission. Such a program is required my Mexican law (Nation's Health, 98).
 
       http://www.umich.edu/~snre492/Jones/maquiladora.htm

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 6:59:45 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What it has to do with now is that we will very easily revert back to those conditions, unless you believe basic human nature has undergone a miraculous enlightenment since then.

Alas, it hasn't.  That's why folk still believe unions actually do any good.



Which means you don't believe they ever have?

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 7:36:20 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What it has to do with now is that we will very easily revert back to those conditions, unless you believe basic human nature has undergone a miraculous enlightenment since then.

Alas, it hasn't.  That's why folk still believe unions actually do any good.



Which means you don't believe they ever have?

You would be correct.  I have no use for unions.


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 7:37:54 PM   
MzMia


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Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What it has to do with now is that we will very easily revert back to those conditions, unless you believe basic human nature has undergone a miraculous enlightenment since then.

Alas, it hasn't.  That's why folk still believe unions actually do any good.



Which means you don't believe they ever have?

You would be correct.  I have no use for unions.



Let's see the world should revolve around what is good for you?
Since, YOU have no use for Unions, no one else should?
lol


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 7:46:15 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

Since, YOU have no use for Unions, no one else should?

Unions are institutionalized inefficiency and incompetence; they exist to nurture ineptitude at the expense of excellence.  As they do no good, they are of no use to anyone.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 7:50:02 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Since, YOU have no use for Unions, no one else should?

Unions are institutionalized inefficiency and incompetence; they exist to nurture ineptitude at the expense of excellence.  As they do no good, they are of no use to anyone.



Thanks for the reply!
We can agree to often disagree, but it is nice to
disagree and be civil to each other.


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 7:52:01 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		In one of those Moses movies they show around Christmas time (which makes no sense), Moses says something to the effect that "Sick slaves make less bricks than healthy slaves, dead slaves make none".

You open up and talk about things, now answer me this question. Oh those who know it all and see the future and every other thing, you have a goose and it lays you a golden egg once a day. It weighs what it weighs, and let's say you are getting $3,663 per day. However this goose is no secret and security is expensive, there is overhead and you see that bottom line creeping up. So you hop in an armoured vehicle or whatever and head down to the vet and ask the vet if there is a way to get the goose to lay, say two eggs a day.

His reply is that yes he could do that but it would shorten her lifespan, she would be dead in two years, three at the max.

What do you do ?

On to the topic at hand. I have seen unions from their best to the worst. I personally know people who were in the UAW who were home when they should be at work and tell me flat out "Charlie will punch me out at quitting time". I have also seen the opposite end of the spectrum, as exhibited by local 5 in Cleveland, the bricklayer's union.

This is a very difficult union to get into, you have to be sponsored, and meet some requirements. Normally during your apprenticeship so many days a moth are school days, you go to the hall and build a wall, something like that. The union assumes all the cost of learning materials and such, bricks, block, mortar. Meantime the company for which you work pays your hourly wage as you go to these classes.

I saw the books they gave my buddy when he was going through it, it is a quite thorough education in the matter. He is now a full mason and can build just about anything. It is hard work, working with brick, block, stone, granite, marble and so forth, but it does pay well. It pays well because it has to be done right the first time. He does well, but has been fired for something that wasn't his fault, it came down to him thinking "That isn't going to happen" and it did. But that was not the end of the world.

People just ain't that smart sometimes. If they thought enough of my Uncle to buy him off from running for union office, there was a reason, and I think I know what it was. He was a realist. Tell you what I think would've happened if he got past the local and into real power, he would have gotten something done. Most likely that would have been to take over the retirement investment business, but he would have run it right.

Even so there would still be some crisis, but most likely about a year ago, like JR Ewing said "I want a revolution", my Uncle would've said "I want liquidity". Now. Actually a Man like him in control of alot of investment capital may have precipitated this "crisis" before the Bush adminstration wanted it.

Read that last sentence again. I'll be back.

T

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RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 8:16:50 PM   
ElectraGlide


Posts: 1246
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I work in a shipping and receiving warehouse for a major appliance company. A Union was voted in last year. After 14 months we still do not have a contract. They said they could get us 5 bucks a hour more plus 7 extra sick days. They are so desperate to get their dues started they are negotiating for a .50 cent and hour raise and 1 extra sick day. I never wanted this union, a fact is the company has been closing union plants for years and sending us their work. If you follow that trend, I like where I stand without a union. I make 50 grand a year to drive a friggin fork lift, thats pretty decent for a un-skilled job. I really have nothing against this union, they do have a job to do, otherwise it would be a free service. I wish the cry babies I work with would have just marched their ass out of the place and found a union job elsewhere.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What the Union I belong to, means to ME :) - 12/14/2008 8:27:41 PM   
MzMia


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Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElectraGlide

I work in a shipping and receiving warehouse for a major appliance company. A Union was voted in last year. After 14 months we still do not have a contract. They said they could get us 5 bucks a hour more plus 7 extra sick days. They are so desperate to get their dues started they are negotiating for a .50 cent and hour raise and 1 extra sick day. I never wanted this union, a fact is the company has been closing union plants for years and sending us their work. If you follow that trend, I like where I stand without a union. I make 50 grand a year to drive a friggin fork lift, thats pretty decent for a un-skilled job. I really have nothing against this union, they do have a job to do, otherwise it would be a free service. I wish the cry babies I work with would have just marched their ass out of the place and found a union job elsewhere.


ElectraGlide? In your case, that Union sounds like one of
the "not so good" Unions.
Thank you for sharing your story.
 

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to ElectraGlide)
Profile   Post #: 58
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