RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype

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RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 3:41:36 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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It's interesting to read the responses here, which range from don't bother us with facts, to there must be some way to wipe the facts away, to we should hurt the person who posted these facts...

Others who are aware of the real history of Iraq are saying "why bother, you know certain ones can't be bothered with the facts"

Thank you so very much, slavegirljoy. It's been the most... entertaining thread I've seen in a long while. And never mind all the

you see here - those with an open mind who get the chance to see this thread will get a great tutorial regarding the way certain things work in this world!

< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/17/2008 3:46:14 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 4:34:54 AM

LadyEllen

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Hmm. Tell you what's interesting Sanity - the way the responses on that thread regarding the German police officers vs the Guantamo situation stopped abruptly, once the matter was clarified and the argument proposed by you backed into a corner. This same ending occurs to many threads of like manner.

Also interesting is the way the subjects of threads get derailed whenever they get close to undoing the Rep PR position.

And truly fascinating is the total refusal we see so often, to countenance the facts getting in the way of that Rep PR position - a prime example being Celeste's total demolition of the "Obama is a socialist because he wants to redistribute" argument in a thread just a few weeks ago.

And its interesting from a psychological position ultimately - for it isnt only those who support what's occurred in the last 8 years as regards US policy who demonstrate this behaviour; rather its those who seem heavily invested in purely ideological positions for which facts matter not, still less reason.

The wilderness is just about the right place to reevaluate such purely ideological positions and come back to the table with something more substantial.

E

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Post #: 22

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 4:52:59 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

So what is the point here?

The point is that there seems to be a lot of people who have either forgotten, never knew, or have chosen to ignore, the historical record of events, as documented in video clips on YouTube, as spoken by President Clinton, and as reported by ABC and CNN, and in news accounts in credible newspapers, over the more than 20 years that Iraq was a source of tension and military conflict for the US and our allies.

This post is here for anyone, who either doesn't want to or can't spend the time researching the facts for them self and to show, for the record, that the Iraq War didn't start with President Bush. It started with Saddam Hussein, who refused to abide by UN sanctions and continued, for more than 20 years, to have, threaten to use, and actually use Chemical and Biological Weapons on neighboring countries and on his own people, making the Middle East extremely unstable.

This post is here for anyone, who wants to look beyond the "Bush is evil" chants and actually read and listen to the record of events leading up to the decision to put troops on the ground in Iraq and rid the world of a menace.

It is a ridiculously long thread but, it is a condensed account of more than 20 years of history that deserves to be looked at and understood in order to see how we got to this point in time. For anyone who cares about the facts, it's worth the time to examine the record.

joy
Master David's erotic-domestic slave

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Post #: 23

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 6:03:50 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Also interesting is the way the subjects of threads get derailed whenever they get close to undoing the Rep PR position.

And truly fascinating is the total refusal we see so often, to countenance the facts getting in the way of that Rep PR position - a prime example being Celeste's total demolition of the "Obama is a socialist because he wants to redistribute" argument in a thread just a few weeks ago.

And its interesting from a psychological position ultimately - for it isnt only those who support what's occurred in the last 8 years as regards US policy who demonstrate this behaviour; rather its those who seem heavily invested in purely ideological positions for which facts matter not, still less reason.

The wilderness is just about the right place to reevaluate such purely ideological positions and come back to the table with something more substantial.

E

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(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 24

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 6:09:54 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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You think I ignore your posts because what?

You think you backed me into a corner???

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Post #: 25

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 6:19:44 AM

knotslandingdom

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Also interesting is the way the subjects of threads get derailed whenever they get close to undoing the Rep PR position.

Like what you just did? How does your post relate to the subject of this thread?

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 26

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 6:26:48 AM

justgemmie

Posts: 246
Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

Why do we have this thread to begin with? Those who feel it was necessary and don't feel Bush did anything wrong here (and I am one) already feel this way. Those who are against it and feel Bush is the anti-Christ are not going to change their mind at this point.

So what is the point here?

good point Naga. i dont' hate Bush and i believe Hillary Clinton is the anti-Christ. so *shrugs* my opinions don't change those that like Hillary.

gemmie

PS -- and big kudos to joy for taking the time to research and share that research, instead of just stating opinions willy-nilly.

< Message edited by justgemmie -- 12/17/2008 6:32:27 AM >

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Post #: 27

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 6:28:09 AM

SilverMark

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I am so glad that we haven't made ridding the world of tin horn dictators our purpose as a country....Saddam was a menace, but represented such a small threat to us as a country. The history of Iraq back to the days of the Ottoman Empire shows a country often conquered for a short period of time and one that has not succeeded well. Bush has been the only American President to land ground forces so it is indeed his "fault". I guess I have yet to see the value in wasting American lives in a God Forsaken country that has such little influence on our lives? Is it too much to ask for justification aside from a UN resolution that, if it didn't meet our needs we would simply ignore as we often do? It was concocted, yes Clinton said Iraq was a dangerous place....HE DID NOT PUT FORCES ON THE GROUND!....THe argument is now of course passed it's relevance and soon we will no longer be an OCCUPYING FORCE....the cost was not worth it!...no American lives are worth what was gained in the war and anyone who thinks that the gains were worth the lives are indeed at least mis-guided, if not a bit worse.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 28

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 6:35:08 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: knotslandingdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Also interesting is the way the subjects of threads get derailed whenever they get close to undoing the Rep PR position.

Like what you just did? How does your post relate to the subject of this thread?

LadyE is right, knots. I can't count the number of times the Republican/Bush/Iraq invasion supporters on the boards have derailed threads that were going against their true beliefs. It's logical that this should put into question their psychological wellbeing: do they actually not see the evidence and to they obliterate the facts, or is it just wishful thinking on their part? Either way, it's worrying for them, and annoying for the rest of us.

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Post #: 29

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 6:58:44 AM

celticlord2112

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Of course. Anything that deviates from the ordained truths propagated by the Holy See of the Democratic Party, and its sainted Dear Leader is simply irrational and untenable.

Four legs good, two legs bad.

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Post #: 30

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 7:02:22 AM

knotslandingdom

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: knotslandingdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Also interesting is the way the subjects of threads get derailed whenever they get close to undoing the Rep PR position.

Like what you just did? How does your post relate to the subject of this thread?

they obliterate the facts, or is it just wishful thinking on their part?

Like the lengthy list of facts listed in the OP? Are you speaking of those pesky little things, like Clinton speaking on TV telling us of his decisions to bomb Iraq on at least 3 occasions and warning us that, Saddam "left unchecked" would mean more trouble for us in the next century (21st)? Are you referring to those sorts of little things that many on here have ignored or labeled "media hype"?

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 31

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 7:09:33 AM

CreativeDominant

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Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NormalOutside

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
If anyone ever reads all this, please give me a synopsis of the post.
Thanks in advance.

Basically, it's mainstream news regurgitated into an even more propagandized form. The OP would/should be severely punished, and not in a happy way, for spreading disinformation and trying to win people over to the side of killing and suffering.

Seriously.

Actually, given the left-leaning house that the mainstream press has not only built but keeps making additions to, I am surprised that the news items quoted above even managed to make it into the pages of the publications cited. If you want to check out just how far on the left this house is, check out the Pugh Report on media coverage of the candidates and the slants taken towards the various candidates.

(in reply to NormalOutside)

Post #: 32

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 7:10:26 AM

Termyn8or

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It amazes me what reverence people give to the source of "news" rather than the content. Bin Laden and Saddam never forged any type of alliance. Soldiers have now been through just about every inch of Iraq and the WMDs did not turn up.

The country is a stinking wastelend because of the US, and the toppling of Saddam's statue was indeed staged. We were not greeted as liberators, the government had passed out weapons to every able bodied available to fight off an invasion.

What's more the history does not go far back enough. Sheeple are not aware that at one time we supported Saddam, Bin Laden, and even the Taliban. I wonder what would have happened if we had just left them all alone.

All we've really accomplished is to become targets, taking the heat off of Israel who actually deserves it. It's called drawing the fire. You happy now ?

T

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 33

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 7:12:47 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

It is a compilation of reports, over the past couple of decades, from the LA Times, New Yorker, San Jose Mercury-News, ABC News, CNN, and other news sources, as well as,YouTube videos of President Clinton's televised speeches

<snip>

Some might like to find out what actually happened and not just rely on the hype

.......so, you cut and paste some of that very hype. Hype that clearly supports one version of events. And then try to berate people for..er...believing the hype.

You appear to be confusing news coverage with primary data. You may want to take a course in media studies.

Here's a challenge for you...define primary data vs. news coverage and then please, explain what makes them different...define what makes these primary data sources objective vs. the biased "hype" you believe slavegirljoy posted. Then, show me the data confirming that the left takes its ideology only from these primary data sources.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 34

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 7:19:05 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: knotslandingdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Also interesting is the way the subjects of threads get derailed whenever they get close to undoing the Rep PR position.

Like what you just did? How does your post relate to the subject of this thread?

LadyE is right, knots. I can't count the number of times the Republican/Bush/Iraq invasion supporters on the boards have derailed threads that were going against their true beliefs. It's logical that this should put into question their psychological wellbeing: do they actually not see the evidence and to they obliterate the facts, or is it just wishful thinking on their part? Either way, it's worrying for them, and annoying for the rest of us.

So if someone derails a thread and they lean to the right, that's bad and they are only doing it because you were about to tear apart their point. When someone on the left does it, it's ok because the other guy does it too. Ok I got it now. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Post #: 35

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 7:31:35 AM

Termyn8or

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CDom, I would've added that anything coming out of a politician's mouth is DEFINITELY NOT primary data.

T

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Post #: 36

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 7:58:48 AM

bluepanda

Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

So what is the point here?

The point is that there seems to be a lot of people who have either forgotten, never knew, or have chosen to ignore, the historical record of events, as documented in video clips on YouTube, as spoken by President Clinton, and as reported by ABC and CNN, and in news accounts in credible newspapers, over the more than 20 years that Iraq was a source of tension and military conflict for the US and our allies.

I think you could count on one hand the number of people who don't realize that or who dispute it. The point is - and always has been - did Saddam pose a threat sufficient to warrant an invasion? The point is, were there other ways of dealing with the problem that would have been more effective and caused fewer problems than invading Iraq? The news stories cited in your post do an excellent job of illustrating that Saddam was a troublemaker (which everyone already knows), but do absolutely nothing to support the argument that invading Iraq was the appropriate solution to the problem. As much of a nuisance as Saddam was, that's really all he was - a nuisance. The policy of containment was clearly working - slowly, of course, but effectively nonetheless, and at considerably less cost and considerably less longterm risk than invading Iraq. That's the crux of the issue, and your post does absolutely nothing to address that point.

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Post #: 37

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 8:13:32 AM

HunterS

Posts: 553
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

In 2005, a total of 1,942 U.S. military personnel were killed in all causes, including accidents, hostile action, homicides, illnesses, suicides, etc.

That compares to 2,392 in 1980, the last year of President Jimmy Carter's administration.

Perhaps you might validate this statement.
Who were we at war with during the Carter administration.

H.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 38

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 8:35:06 AM

cjan

Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Of course. Anything that deviates from the ordained truths propagated by the Holy See of the Democratic Party, and its sainted Dear Leader is simply irrational and untenable.

Four legs good, two legs bad.

Lmao...and this from a supporter of the "we create our own reality" administration !

quote:

It turned out that the Bush administration had about as much respect for scientific facts as it did for facts about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. As one official explained to author and journalist Ron Suskind in 2002, the administration had nothing but disdain for what it called "the reality-based community," people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." That would be science. Instead, said the official, "we create our own reality."

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Post #: 39

RE: The Iraq War - Know the History, Not Just the Hype - 12/17/2008 8:50:26 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Here's a challenge for you...define primary data vs. news coverage and then please, explain what makes them different...define what makes these primary data sources objective vs. the biased "hype" you believe slavegirljoy posted.

...seriously you need some help with that? Well, ok, but only 'cos it's Xmas.

Primary data: eye witness accounts, raw data, photographs.......things that are not hearsay.

The vast majority of the stuff Joy typed out wasn't raw data (though to be fair the list of US military deaths by conflict was). Most of that was various op ed pieces from newspapers and the like. Essentially, interpretations of raw data. Reporting hearsay as facts.

quote:

Then, show me the data confirming that the left takes its ideology only from these primary data sources.

....oh, you poor thing. Is your mind so narrow that you think the only two possible opinions are right wingers who support the Iraq war and left wingers who decry it?

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 40

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