Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 8:47:30 AM)

Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy

There's hope yet.  Perhaps this time Gettelfinger and his UAW parasites will get the message:  the days of bleeding the Big Three are over.




LaTigresse -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 9:04:55 AM)

I just read that Chrysler is closing all plants for a month starting Friday.




pahunkboy -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 9:09:07 AM)

CL,   consider that GM has a branch, GMAC,  a finance dodad.   I heard on larouche that it isnt a car issue it is the credit defaults.   they make MORE money off of the financing.  a buddy tried to pay cash in 1985, the dealer did not want to do cash.    sears also- then made more off of its credit then the actual widget.

we may as well throw in insurance.  ie extended warrantees on  vibrators and dildos.   oops.

the auto industry needs to have a talk with the oil industry.   foir now-  (its) not my problem.   (glunk)




celticlord2112 -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 9:13:32 AM)

quote:

they make MORE money off of the financing. a buddy tried to pay cash in 1985, the dealer did not want to do cash.

When I bought my ex-wife's Chevy Cavalier, I told the dealer it was a cash transaction.  He didn't bat an eye--in fact, his eyes lit up at the thought of getting cash.

Did you vet LaRouche's statements about GM/GMAC independently?




pahunkboy -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 9:30:48 AM)

http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=gmail&q=gmac+finance&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&resnum=4&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=m&as_mind=18&as_minm=11&as_maxd=18&as_maxm=12&nolr=1

CL,  good question.  Only now I did.  GMAC applied for bank status.   so an assembly plant that makes widgets is not a bank..... 




Termyn8or -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 9:32:55 AM)

CL, actually I am inclined to believe it. It's more than just those GMAC credit cards, they got their feet wet in the markets, funds all this. That is what has happened to too many companies in this country. Stick to making cars, let someone else handle all that crap.

So when times like these come, your ass is not in the fire.

T




rulemylife -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 11:28:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

CL,   consider that GM has a branch, GMAC,  a finance dodad.   I heard on larouche that it isnt a car issue it is the credit defaults.   they make MORE money off of the financing.  a buddy tried to pay cash in 1985, the dealer did not want to do cash.    sears also- then made more off of its credit then the actual widget.



Pa, you finally came up with something I agree with, mostly.

It is the credit defaults, but not the defaults on the auto loans. 

Gmac is a bank, I have an account with them.  They are also one of the largest mortgage lenders in the country.

GM owns 49% of GMAC.

Guess who owns the rest?

Cerberus Capital Management, the owners of Chrysler.

This whole thing has much more to do with the automakers' poor investment decisions and the mortgage meltdown than anything to do with unions, foreign competition, or the quality of the vehicles.

It's no coincidence they are happening at the same time.




pahunkboy -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 1:42:32 PM)

Rule, the neighbors house refi is owned by them.  She thought she could loose her house if they go under.  I told her she wont. Just keep current on the payments.

Rule, the people around me are being driven crazy as well.  My brother just got done shutting me up.   So- if some on the net think it is rubbish fine, but my brother who works very hard, ...he thinks if his money is in 3 banks that he  is totally safe.  It bothers me on him.  History repeats and just because we are American doesnt mean we are not immune to it.    I tried to explain what a bank holiday is.... argh.   He is planning to buy a 102k mercedes.   WHY?  that is the last car one would drive in Chicagoland if things get ugly.

There is more hope this week then last.  Obama made a few appointments that could help.

We WILL come to a fork in the road.  Are we a colony or are we a nation.     Too bad the economy will collapse and untold wealth, life savings will wipe out.  after which, what motivation will the middlecalss have to work hard?   take away house, 401k, job cuts, higher taxes...  there is a point where people will say no more.  I dont mean so mad they might vote, I mean MAD and throwing rocks, shutting down freeways, breaking bank windows.  civil unrest.   Did you know house and car insurance doesnt cover "civil unrest"?




popeye1250 -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 4:46:59 PM)

I was watching CNBC earlier and they said that the TARP could be very profitable for the Taxpayers.
We could then use that money to pay down debts.




bluepanda -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 5:19:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I was watching CNBC earlier and they said that the TARP could be very profitable for the Taxpayers.
We could then use that money to pay down debts.


Some guy on Bloomberg was saying the same thing today. Can't remember his name, because I have that channel on 12 hours a day and it all kinda runs together after a certain point, but he was adamant about it. He was decidedly cautious about the economy in general over the next 12 to 18 months, but quite positive that by sometime in 2010, TARP will start netting some serious returns. We shall see, eh?




leatherjacket -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 6:04:18 PM)

Chrysler is dead already, and they need to think of the best way to kill it. There are zero products in the pipeline, and the products they have now are already behind their Big 2.8 competitors.

For the Big 2.8 to surive, they need to let the Swedes take back Volvo and Saab, kill Saturn, Pontiac, GMC trucks, Hummer (if they can't sell it to the Chinese, Indians, or Arabs), Mercury, Dodge and Chrysler brand, sell Buick to the Chinese, and let GM takeover Jeep. That will leave Detroit with 2 lean companies with a good product mix. At the same time, they need Ch. 11 to kick the UAW in the balls and get rid of all the excess dealers. They can't do that outside Ch. 11 since Oldsmobile put a huge sting on GM when times were good.

If this happens, there can be a recovery in Detroit. If not, we will have three bloated American versions of 1980s Renault care of the coming Messiah.




leatherjacket -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 6:08:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I just read that Chrysler is closing all plants for a month starting Friday.



They have to get all the workers out so there are no plant takeovers (ie like Chicago recently) when the bad news hits. That and there are no buyers for the cars already on the lots and sitting around all over metro Detroit.




samboct -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 7:17:18 PM)

Bush is delusional.  His grasp of reality has finally snapped.

On another source for the same story-

"
Bush said the auto industry is "obviously very fragile" and he is worried about what an out-and-out collapse without Washington involvement "would do to the psychology" of the markets.
"There still is a lot of uncertainty," he said.
At the same time, the president said anew that he is worried about "putting good money after bad," meaning taxpayer dollars shouldn't be used to prop up companies that can't survive the long term.
He revealed one other consideration - that Obama will become president in just over a month.
"I thought about what it would be like for me to become president during this period. I believe that good policy is not to dump him a major catastrophe on his first day in office," Bush said."


Umm- Bush doesn't want to dump a major catastrophe on Obama for his first day in office?  The financial meltdown, massive Wall St. bailouts, rapidly rising unemployment and consumer confidence plunging...this is the closest we've come to the Great Depression of the 1930s and so far the only difference is that we haven't had a drought and it hasn't been recognized as such.  Not to mention shoveling money with dumptrucks into the sandpit/latrine of Iraq- never mind not doing anything about global warming....but he doesn't want to leave Obama with a major crisis his first day in office?  He's lost all connection with reality.

Has any president elect been handed a larger mountain of fertilizer for his first day in office in our 200 plus year history?  Not bailing out the auto industry is merely insult to injury at this point.  Some of the previous posters have noted that the major problem of the automakers isn't poor management- it's the financial crisis which has downgraded their bond rating while companies such as Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch continued to get AAA ratings.  Lower ratings means it costs more money to borrow, and the margins of these companies has been very tight for many years due to global overcapacity-driven by countries such as Korea supporting auto manufacture as state policy, not as a profitable enterprise.  In short- you could be a brilliant business person, and you're still out of options, and have been for the past decade.

Republican senators against bailing out the car companies have shown that they are incapable of learning from their own errors- or facing them.  While they throw out comparisons with the failure of the Rover bailout in England with the US manufacturers- the reality is very different.  The US car mfg's have a decent market share and ALL car manufacturers are suffering.  (Rover was ailing when other firms were successful.)  This is a tsunami that can swamp all boats- those with gov't lifelines will probably weather the storm the best.  Wanna buy a Prius?  They'll cut you a nice deal...right now.  Mercedes are stacking up in yards near the ports where they got unloaded- nobody wants them.  It seems to me that the US manufacturers made cars/trucks that people wanted, until the gas prices rose.  Yes, being caught flatfooted by that was dumb, but these companies don't have enough reserves to have backup models waiting in the wings for that shoe to drop.  And they've still got some pretty good engineers- it'd be a shame for those people to be out on the street. 


But the biggest problem that the car companies have is that the bank bailout hasn't worked and the money's evaporated.  Most people who buy a new car have to take out a loan- I think there are more car loans out there than mortgages, although the total $$ amount in mortgages is much higher.  But if you have to buy a car now, you need to pay cash, because in one of the most moronic moves of all time, credit agencies are demanding ever higher credit scores.  This idea is idiotic because credit scores haven't worked- they've brought us to the financial abyss we're looking at.

Consider the $350B bailout to the banks so far.  Well, that's enough money to buy over a YEARS worth of car production- yet people who want an auto loan are SOL.  How are people supposed to buy these cars without being able to get a loan?  Yet, do any of the bozo's in Washington acknowledge that the bailout didn't work- that credit's still frozen?  And who got all this money anyhow?  An article in todays NYT pointed out that it's still bonus season on Wall St- and where did that money come from?

Detroit has been the whipping boy for failed US policies, and it looks like they may get wiped out- which would be a tragedy for us all.  What wouldn't be a tragedy would be if the senators that won't vote for this bailout would be out of a job instead.....

Sam




E2Sweet -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 7:54:20 PM)

 The problem here is people either don't have money to buy a car, no longer have a home in which to park a new car, or have some money but aren't going to spend it on a car with a massive economic depression looming. Cutting wages to build more of what people don't want is not going to work. *yawn*




Lorr47 -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 11:16:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy

There's hope yet.  Perhaps this time Gettelfinger and his UAW parasites will get the message:  the days of bleeding the Big Three are over.



I have always viewed pro union vs anti union as basically a cyclical event.  When management oppresses and subjugates workers, then unions grow.  When unions become corrupt and hinder the economy, then anti unionism grows.  What bothers me at the present time is that both management and unions appear to be useless, corrupt,  and oppressive.  Both try to steal as much as possible and then take positions from which they will not negotiate.  A pox on them both.




gman992 -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 11:19:16 PM)

The Unions and the Auto presidents make cars that no one wants to buy---it's that simple...Amazingly, none of the foreign car makers in America are having problems...I know...I know that those are not "American" products...




variation30 -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 11:25:41 PM)

they'll get their bail out. if it isn't done by Christmas, it'll be done after the obamessaiah is in office.




Lorr47 -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 11:32:10 PM)

quote:

The Unions and the Auto presidents make cars that no one wants to buy---it's that simple...Amazingly, none of the foreign car makers in America are having problems...I know...I know that those are not "American" products...
quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

The Unions and the Auto presidents make cars that no one wants to buy---it's that simple...Amazingly, none of the foreign car makers in America are having problems...I know...I know that those are not "American" products...


I think some of the Toyota products probably would be considered made in the USA even though the parent company would be considered "foreign."




slvemike4u -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/18/2008 11:50:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy

There's hope yet.  Perhaps this time Gettelfinger and his UAW parasites will get the message:  the days of bleeding the Big Three are over.

CL,do you have even a rudimentary knowledge of the collective bargaining process.In this and other threads it would seem you lay all responsibility at the feet of the UAW.....the Big Three were sitting at those tables too you know.The gun being held to their head was purely figurtive.They signed the contracts,they negotiated the damm things....why are Union workers the villians.




variation30 -> RE: Bush considering "orderly" auto bankruptcy (12/19/2008 12:12:52 AM)

the big three do screw themselves over with unions. they could put up shops in states with more palatable laws concerning unions...but a lot of this depends on when certain laws are enacted or amended and when the factory was built...




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