RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/20/2008 9:57:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac
Ok that makes sense. When you say 90%...are you getting that figure specifically from somewhere?

Specifically from my experience, observation and it's a nice round figure that makes a good statement.  I like pithy.



quote:

I generally agree, but this idea really needs to be expanded. I mean, you could be describing a traditional 1940s household. Though I agree with the idea, it's too open and vague. Also, action and authority can't really be split apart, or we'd not be using that catchy word "dynamic" so much I think.

Thanks for answering more in depth, LA.

Authority exists without action.  However, it must be expressed through action because we are physical beings.



sujuguete -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 7:29:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

24/7 M/s is redundant to me.  From my perspective, if a relationship is M/s then it already is 24/7 and it already encompasses every aspect of life.  For us, an M/s relationship is one where the master has complete authority within the relationship and the only thing that limits that authority is their own personal preferences, desires and morality.

Do you both desire a relationship where you have all the authority?  Do you both want a relationship where your decision is the final decision?  For some people, this type of relationship would be incredibly stifling and unfulfilling and for others, it is exactly what they need to be content in life. 


I concur with Kyra that, for me, an M/s relationship is already 24/7.  And she raises some valid questions, which I think you and your sub need to explore, if you haven't already.

For me, giving up control grew as my trust in my (former) Dom grew.  In some areas it was easy and immediate, in other areas it was more difficult, and took longer.  Are there particular areas where she is hesitant to give up control to you?  You may need to have some in-depth discussions as to why this is happening, and what the two of you can do to smooth the way.

Another thought that occurred to me is:  are the two of you really on the same page as to what you want your 24/7 M/s relationship to be?  Have you really discussed how the two of you want the dynamic to work outside the home as well as inside?  If you don't have the same vision, then you are going to have a rough time of it unless you can hash out a dynamic that works for both of you.

Does she feel the relationship is not progressing as quickly as it should?  Or is this just your concern?  Again, communicate with each other and figure out what will work for you.  There is no set timeline for this.  And good luck!



SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 8:09:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac
I suppose 24/7 M&s is redundant, but not sure where that rant from Kyra really fits into actually answering the post. I will say the rest of what she said was pretty good though.


That's funny.  Whooohooo I am a 'ranter'!  Mod XI better watch me now!! 

I wonder if I am in danger of losing my "goody-two-shoes" title?

Knight's Kyra




You're also one of those people who have really cool outfits. And I don't mean that in a bad way. Nice stuff.



kyraofMists -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 8:18:21 AM)

Thank you.

I love halloween because I get to dress up.  We just extended that passion to include play parties and events.

We are also poly.  However, bondage for bondage sake is just plain boring for me  *w* 

(In case it isn't translating well in print, I am just being playful)

Knight's Kyra



SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 8:26:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac
Ok that makes sense. When you say 90%...are you getting that figure specifically from somewhere?

Specifically from my experience, observation and it's a nice round figure that makes a good statement.  I like pithy.


Gotchya. I was just wondering if that was based on actual research.



quote:

I generally agree, but this idea really needs to be expanded. I mean, you could be describing a traditional 1940s household. Though I agree with the idea, it's too open and vague. Also, action and authority can't really be split apart, or we'd not be using that catchy word "dynamic" so much I think.

Thanks for answering more in depth, LA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Authority exists without action.  However, it must be expressed through action because we are physical beings.


So therefore it can't exist without action, which is why I think the word dynamic is used so much. (Actually I think people use that word a lot because it sounds cool, but yeah...)

With that example you used about a master slouching and watching t.v. and still having the authority, it only is that way because of his past actions, choices, expressions and so on which inspired the girl to love and respect him. If he suddenly goes into a coma there will be no authorty, because there will be no dynamic. Well that's my take on it at least.



IronBear -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 8:37:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

With that example you used about a master slouching and watching t.v. and still having the authority, it only is that way because of his past actions, choices, expressions and so on which inspired the girl to love and respect him. If he suddenly goes into a coma there will be no authorty, because there will be no dynamic. Well that's my take on it at least.



Not necessarily true. If he slumps into a coma and even if he if on life support, the memory of him alive and in control together with his "essence" is likely to be sufficient to maintain the authority and thus the dynamic, especially if there is a possibility that he will awake and be able to continue the conscious authority.  The memory and examples of rulers have often been believed to have influenced the actions of successors for years after their death. Also in a similar vein, authority of a person incarcerated even for several lifetimes still fosters an original dynamic to continue..  Sorry I can't quote references or studies at this time..





SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 8:59:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Not necessarily true. If he slumps into a coma and even if he if on life support, the memory of him alive and in control together with his "essence" is likely to be sufficient to maintain the authority and thus the dynamic, especially if there is a possibility that he will awake and be able to continue the conscious authority. 


Well, yeah, because of his past actions. Remembering and cherishing and hoping isn't the same as submitting and obeying in an authority dynamic, though. There's that word again, lol.


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

The memory and examples of rulers have often been believed to have influenced the actions of successors for years after their death.


Again, influence is a different thing. But influence is about action. I'd also add that the memories of past leaders are almost always twisted to suit someone else's agenda.

They are the ones really enjoying the power system and the obedience of the people.

Action, action, action, everywhere you look.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Also in a similar vein, authority of a person incarcerated even for several lifetimes still fosters an original dynamic to continue.. Sorry I can't quote references or studies at this time..


Again, because of the dynamic of what occurred before.

Your example is a case of loyalty and a hope for the dynamic to continue, because in the minds of the people waiting for their loved ones to get out of prison are ideas of things they will do together once they are together and in a dynamic again.

You just can't have one without the other for too long.



kyraofMists -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 9:21:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac
If he suddenly goes into a coma there will be no authorty, because there will be no dynamic. Well that's my take on it at least.


Right now, Alandra and I are here at the house alone.  He has been away for a week now and our interactions have been very minimal.  However, we are still obeying him.  It isn't just his actions that demonstrate that he has the authority within the relationship.  It is our actions as well.

If he were to fall into a coma, we would still continue to behave in the manner that he would expect of us.  Life would change significantly without his active participation, but we would continue to do our best to meet his expectations of us and our family.

Knight's Kyra



NuevaVida -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 10:11:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

With that example you used about a master slouching and watching t.v. and still having the authority, it only is that way because of his past actions, choices, expressions and so on which inspired the girl to love and respect him. If he suddenly goes into a coma there will be no authorty, because there will be no dynamic. Well that's my take on it at least.



Not necessarily true. If he slumps into a coma and even if he if on life support, the memory of him alive and in control together with his "essence" is likely to be sufficient to maintain the authority and thus the dynamic, especially if there is a possibility that he will awake and be able to continue the conscious authority.  The memory and examples of rulers have often been believed to have influenced the actions of successors for years after their death. Also in a similar vein, authority of a person incarcerated even for several lifetimes still fosters an original dynamic to continue..  Sorry I can't quote references or studies at this time..





I'd like to contribute to this particular vein of this thread, as well.

My former owner was significantly older than me and had significantly enough health issues that he taught me to live as he would wish me to live, should something happen that rendered him mentally incapable of mastering me, or, god forbid, dead.  I knew precisely how he wished me to live, and planned to do so in the event of his untimely death, or as referenced here, coma.  His death or coma would not have removed his ownership of me, and my loyalty to my slavery to him would have had me living my life as he expected.  The dynamic would have existed in my heart and mind, and I would have lived it, difficult as it may have been.  His authority would have continued to rule me in spirit.

As he has since forfeited his ownership of me, that is no longer the case for me.  Had he not done so, I would have been his in perpetuity.



SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 10:13:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Right now, Alandra and I are here at the house alone.  He has been away for a week now and our interactions have been very minimal.  However, we are still obeying him.  It isn't just his actions that demonstrate that he has the authority within the relationship.  It is our actions as well.


Ok, but we're still talking about actions you are taking because of his actions in the past and to be, right?

If he comes home and you and Alandra have invited three horses ten cats and a donkey to live there without his permission...he's going to probably take some action about that, lol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
If he were to fall into a coma, we would still continue to behave in the manner that he would expect of us.  Life would change significantly without his active participation, but we would continue to do our best to meet his expectations of us and our family.

Knight's Kyra


That's very noble and I believe you! But like you said, life would change drastically.

The change would be catastrophic, I'm betting.

Why? Because Master isn't there...he has become a cherished memory and idea if his brain and body is not working right. He doesnt have the power to give orders and discipline you or the ability to show love.

You will remain a creation of what he has done with you, though.

Now I can't speak for you, but I would think there would be a need to seek another master sooner or later in most girls if their master was permanently out of commision with no hope of a return...and I think most masters would want that for the happiness of their girls for obvious reasons, too.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 10:22:02 AM)

Whether consciousness negates existing dynamics is an excellent question, and I don't think we'll come to a decisive answer.

However, for me authority exists just because it is.  Somewhat akin to love, I don't need to DO anything in order to know that I am in a state of love with another person.  It exists as it is.  I understand people require physical action in order to consider something to be "dominance" and that's ok for them.  But that's not how I operate in the world.



IronBear -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 10:22:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac


Your example is a case of loyalty and a hope for the dynamic to continue, because in the minds of the people waiting for their loved ones to get out of prison are ideas of things they will do together once they are together and in a dynamic again.

You just can't have one without the other for too long.



Wrong again but seeing you missed the point entirely, there is no poiint in continuing this conversation.



SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 10:29:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I'd like to contribute to this particular vein of this thread, as well.

My former owner was significantly older than me and had significantly enough health issues that he taught me to live as he would wish me to live, should something happen that rendered him mentally incapable of mastering me, or, god forbid, dead.  I knew precisely how he wished me to live, and planned to do so in the event of his untimely death, or as referenced here, coma.  His death or coma would not have removed his ownership of me, and my loyalty to my slavery to him would have had me living my life as he expected.  The dynamic would have existed in my heart and mind, and I would have lived it, difficult as it may have been.  His authority would have continued to rule me in spirit.

As he has since forfeited his ownership of me, that is no longer the case for me.  Had he not done so, I would have been his in perpetuity.



Yeah, but again, WHY would you be his in perpetuity? It probably has to do with how great of a master he was with you.

Again, creating a shrine to someone in your mind isn't the same as a living, breathing authority dynamic.

And if he forfeited his ownership of you, should it matter? I mean, if actions don't mean much, then you should still be his in all perpetuity...right? The probable truth is he made some serious blunders and screwed something up, or you did...thats just my guess...

And what's your life like now? Have you been looking for another master or do you have another one already?



NuevaVida -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 10:38:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac

Again, creating a shrine to someone in your mind isn't the same as a living, breathing authority dynamic.

Quite true.  But living as I was taught/expected to live and creating a shrine are two completely different things.  Considering myself owned by him even in his death and creating a shrine are also two different things.  There would be no shrine - just an agreement and a living out of that agreement.

quote:


And if he forfeited his ownership of you, should it matter? I mean, if actions don't mean much, then you should still be his in all perpetuity...right?

Well, now it doesn't matter because he doesn't own me anymore.  Forfeiture of ownership means I own myself now, and live as I please, under my own authority, not as he pleases or under his authority. If he did not forfeit ownership, I would belong to him as long as he kept me.  I'm honestly confused about your comment about actions not meaning much.

quote:


The probable truth is he made some serious blunders and screwed something up, or you did...thats just my guess...

This is purely speculative and has no significant value to my response to your question.

quote:


And what's your life like now? Have you been looking for another master or do you have another one already?


My life is quite good now.  I am very slowly and carefully developing a relationship with someone who is not currently a master to me.  He may be in time...then again, maybe not.  I own myself right now.


Edited to add ~~

I forgot to answer this question:
quote:

Yeah, but again, WHY would you be his in perpetuity? It probably has to do with how great of a master he was with you.

Because that was my promise, agreement and vow to him and to myself, based on his desired and maintained ownership of me.  It was what we both wanted for me at the time, and what we both felt was best for me.



SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 11:35:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac
The probable truth is he made some serious blunders and screwed something up, or you did...thats just my guess...

This is purely speculative and has no significant value to my response to your question.


Well yeah it may be "speculative" on my part...but I think the point is there.

a master can screw things up...through his actions or missing actions. That goes for slaves too.
we have enough examples of that in message boards across the internet where things didn't work out.

If you deny actions matter in authority, you're living in a make belive world, I'd say. it doesn't jive with being human.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Because that was my promise, agreement and vow to him and to myself, based on his desired and maintained ownership of me.  It was what we both wanted for me at the time, and what we both felt was best for me.


"Maintained" was a great choice of words and is what I'm talking about.

Don't forget to mention your desire, too.
You don't just blindly agree to hand yourself over to someone for all eternity...it's a process which makes you realize you want to and its an ongoing process to.

Through his actions...through the dynamic...you come to want ownership and accept it. If he turns out to be a cross dresser who only wants to submit and spends his time with other mistresses...well, you are probably gonna reject his authority eventually.



DesFIP -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 11:36:25 AM)

Isaac, a successful relationship is one in which both people get their needs met and are allowed to flourish. M/s, D/s, marriages, business partnerships, parent/offspring, friends. The same rules apply to all of them. Either you are both happy in a relationship or eventually neither of you are.

Mistreat your kids and expect them to never call when you grow old. Be dismissive towards your closest friend and you won't be their friend any more, cheat your business partner and watch the business be dissolved. Same rules apply to all successful relationships.

And I'm not being sarcastic, I'm telling you a cold hard truth.

Demand a sub learn flawlessly all kinds of rules that are senseless, and watch her opinion of you plummet. Deliberately interfere with her job so she can't get promoted and she'll think long and hard about whether you're worth being with.

There are only so many rules you can announce before you find them contradicting each other. At which point you're the fool and she'll know it. You seem to feel as if once someone commits to you, they will accept stupidity and mistreatment forever. It doesn't work that way. You not only have to prove yourself worthy of getting that commitment, you also have to keep acting in a worthwhile way.



SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 11:53:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Isaac, a successful relationship is one in which both people get their needs met and are allowed to flourish. M/s, D/s, marriages, business partnerships, parent/offspring, friends. The same rules apply to all of them. Either you are both happy in a relationship or eventually neither of you are. Mistreat your kids and expect them to never call when you grow old. Be dismissive towards your closest friend and you won't be their friend any more, cheat your business partner and watch the business be dissolved. Same rules apply to all successful relationships.


I agree with that totally. No argument here now, and there wasn't one before.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
And I'm not being sarcastic, I'm telling you a cold hard truth.


Lay it on me, baby. [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Demand a sub learn flawlessly all kinds of rules that are senseless, and watch her opinion of you plummet. Deliberately interfere with her job so she can't get promoted and she'll think long and hard about whether you're worth being with.


I agree, but we're talking about SLAVE here, not "sub."

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
There are only so many rules you can announce before you find them contradicting each other. At which point you're the fool and she'll know it.


Which is why I agreed we should build the rules logically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
You seem to feel as if once someone commits to you, they will accept stupidity and mistreatment forever. It doesn't work that way.


Huh? I never said that.

Where the heck did you ever get that idea from? I mean, have you been paying attention to this thread on actions vs. authority?

Speaking of that, your post here affirms what I'm saying very well. You may not realize this, but we agree more than disagree.


edited to add: I think we are going around in circles, folks.



NuevaVida -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 12:23:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyIsaac


Well yeah it may be "speculative" on my part...but I think the point is there.

You can think that, but you'd be wrong.  The reason for his forfeiture is irrelevant to this discussion, but has nothing to do with anyone "blowing it."

quote:


a master can screw things up...through his actions or missing actions. That goes for slaves too.
we have enough examples of that in message boards across the internet where things didn't work out.

Of course we have.  No one here is stating otherwise.

quote:


If you deny actions matter in authority, you're living in a make belive world, I'd say. it doesn't jive with being human.


Of course.  And through both his actions and mine, I learned to live in a way that suited him and was good for me.  Those lessons don't disappear once the man is gone.
quote:


Don't forget to mention your desire, too.

My desire was implied and known in my slavery to him.  I don't need to profess its existence elsewhere.\

quote:


You don't just blindly agree to hand yourself over to someone for all eternity...it's a process which makes you realize you want to and its an ongoing process to.


Here's that "blind" word again that I hate so much.  No offense to you, Isaac, but do you really believe someone would "blindly" (ie; without knowledge, forethought, insight, or care) turn his/her life over forever to someone else?  You state this with some assumption that I didn't know the man inside and out, know his character, know his thoughts, feelings and agenda, and know his goals for himself and for me.  I belonged to the man for four years and in those four years a lot of life was lived and discussed.  There was nothing "blind" about it.  I knew what I was in, and it was where I wanted to be.
quote:


Through his actions...through the dynamic...you come to want ownership and accept it. If he turns out to be a cross dresser who only wants to submit and spends his time with other mistresses...well, you are probably gonna reject his authority eventually.


Ok this is a major leap from "if he falls into a coma."  You are changing all the parameters here which creates an entirely different discussion.  See above - I knew (and still know) him quite well.  Were it ever to have been revealed he was a cross dresser/serial killer/way out there extreme XYZ-whatever, then that would mean he completely falsified himself during my discovery of who he is, and is not the man I gave myself to, therefore revoking any agreement I may have made with him under false claim.  It would not mean I was blind; it would mean I was seriously misled and lied to, thereby nullifying my slavery to him.

All due respect but I think you're all over the board here, and while I have attempted to openly and honestly answer your inquiries, this thread is no longer making much sense to me.



SimplyIsaac -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 12:54:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

You can think that, but you'd be wrong.  The reason for his forfeiture is irrelevant to this discussion, but has nothing to do with anyone "blowing it."


Since you refuse to explain how it all came to him "forfeiting" his ownership of you, I guess we'll have to take your word on that.

Insisting it has nothing to do as an example of the subject at hand is questionable...but that's just my feeling.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Ok this is a major leap from "if he falls into a coma."  You are changing all the parameters here which creates an entirely different discussion. 


Actually, you changed the parameters by introducing your example as an answer to the discussion, and mentioning your master releasing you as an example of your POV. I countered, keeping on the Authority vs. Action subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
All due respect but I think you're all over the board here, and while I have attempted to openly and honestly answer your inquiries, this thread is no longer making much sense to me.


Sorry you are confused. No big deal, and while i recognize your right to privacy, you have actually refused to go into why you were released by your master.

I suspect that honestly describing why will point to the idea that actions and the lack of actions matter in authority. Nothing to be confused about...I've been on the same subject all along here. It's a pretty simple idea. No problem. We can drop it.






wordstoponder -> RE: Extending M/s to encompass every aspect of life (12/21/2008 1:08:06 PM)

Reading DesFIP's response has got me thinking.  I do not live with Master, but stay for extended periods of time, such as during the weekends, and sometimes more.  We have a great relationship.  He is able to take care of His apartment without any help but greatly appreciates it when I take the initiative to do simple chores like dishes, sweeping, making the bed, laundry, etc.  He just started working again and enjoys coming home to a clean house with a happy submissive.

We've been together for about nine months, and the D/s dynamic is more obvious at some times than during others, depending on our moods, the family situation (His kids stay over every other weekend), any plans for the day, etc.  I've realized that I am submissive by nature, and that I am content kneeling at His feet and being petted, as well as doing my best to please Him and make Him happy.  However, this is not always the case.  I can't do chores naked in the middle of a New England winter with a five yearold and nine yearold running around.  I can't kneel at His feet all the time.  He can't order me to give Him a blowjob or use toys on me when His friends are over the house. 

Try Your best to maintain control.  Provide structure that is consistent and persistent.  Take a look at the overall dynamic of Your relationship and enjoy the small opportunities You do have to indulge in the Lifestyle.  Otherwise learn to appreciate the minor things, such as asking for her to make something specific for dinner or to wear a certain something (or in the case of my Master, not to wear a certain something.. hehe).



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